Help identify these subjects?

TheFlyingCamera · Jun 22, 2010

Can anyone help me identify what tribe these two gentlemen are from, and even better, can you verify that the one on the left with the clear face is in women's clothing? Is this a copy of a published image or is this a (relatively) unique original? All I know is that they are of the desert southwest, perhaps Arizona or New Mexico, or even northern Mexico/west Texas.

BradS · Jun 23, 2010

I cannot identify the tribe but the one on the viewer's left is almost certainly a female.

TheFlyingCamera · Jun 23, 2010

Here's one reason why I suspect they are both male - take a look at the hands. If that's a woman on the left, she's got some SERIOUS man-hands.

Upon doing the fine detail scan for the hands, I can tell this is a reproduction, and a fairly recent one at that - you can detect the offset printing dots.

Rick A · Jun 23, 2010

From what I remember from viewing photos in the museums I visited in New Mexico, they look to be Apache, quite possibly Jicarilla tribe (northern NM), I dont think them to be Navajo.
The one on the left is sitting in an effeminate position, subserviante to her partner. The hands dont mean anything, as the women did all the work in camp, including chopping wood for fires and cooking, and washing clothes at the river, etc.

kossi008 · Jun 23, 2010

Well, I think they're both women. I have noticed the hands, and would explain them away with hard work...

SuzanneR · Jun 23, 2010

Interesting picture, Scott. And based on their body language, it looks like a man (on the right) and a woman on the left. Just look where their feet are. And both their hands have done a lot of work... strong hands, for sure.

bsdunek · Jun 23, 2010

It looks like an Edward S. Curtis photo, although others did similar work. See:

Dead Link Removed

As said above, women did hard work then. They didn't sit around and do their nails and watch TV. Growing up in farm country, I remember that many of the older women had similar hands. They could chop wood, pitch hay, and many other things that were necessary to be a true partner on the farm. Hands like that have their own beauty.

Bertil · Jun 23, 2010

I think Suzanne is completly right and has a nice point: "Just look where their feet are."
/Bertil

Andrew Horodysky · Jun 23, 2010

If you're inclined to some further detective work, you can contact the following departments at the National Museum of the American Indian (part of the Smithsonian):

Archives | NMAIarchives@si.edu

Research | NIN@si.edu

Maybe a quicker response can be had from the Braun Research Library, part of the Southwest Museum of the American Indian within the Autry Center (Los Angeles):

rroom@theautry.org

Good luck.

Thomas Bertilsson · Jun 23, 2010

I know little about these, but have sent an inquiry to a couple of people that might be able to help. The suggestion to contact the National Museum of the American Indian is good.

- Thomas

TheFlyingCamera · Jun 23, 2010

I have emailed the photo department at the NMAI with a scan of the image. Hopefully they will be able to get back to me with some information. In doing the detail scan I realized that it was a reproduction of the original print, so I feel a bit cheated. However, while the seller may have overpriced this one ($40), I more than made up for it with the other two images I bought, genuine CDVs from the 1860s and 1870s, one of them of a famous burlesque/vaudeville performer, Lydia Thompson.

Thomas Bertilsson · Jul 19, 2010

Scott,

Any luck on this? My efforts contacting a museum has so far remained fruitless.

- Thomas

TheFlyingCamera · Jul 19, 2010

I got a response from the NMAI image curators:

The image you sent along looks very much like a series of images by Orloff R. Westmann of Jicarilla Apache people, who he photographed at Taos Pueblo NM, 30 September 1871 (I don't have any bio info on ... See MoreWestmann). The giveaway is the striped blanket pinned up against the plastered adobe wall in the background, and their high-topped moccasins, which are typical.

I don't think you can assume the man on in the left was two-spirited, though the outfit is a bit strange (if warm---it gets cold at Taos!). Men normally just wrapped up in a blanket; men also normally braided their hair, intertwined with ribbon or wrapped with fur which this person has not. Checking out the hands and wrists never seems to work to determine the sex of people---these people lead remarkably difficult lives, and the wear and tear on them was tremendous.

My sense is that this is a pic of two women; a confusing but great shot!

It really only took maybe a week or less to get a response from them.

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