HELP ASAP! IR question before I fly out!

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StoneNYC

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This is the Rollei shot through a Hoya R72 - I metered the ambient light as indicated using EI 3: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)


That's a really beautiful shot. Now do you know how IR reacts to TEMPERATURE? I'll be in the grand canyon so I'll be in wide open spaces, so I was thinking unlike your EI3 shot perhaps I should do EI6 since there is more sun beating down... but it's also sort of a HEAT thing, and it's cold there, like 30 degrees to 5 degrees Fahrenheit... will that affect the shot?

Also, where did you meter? the leaves, the sky, the river? etc. Thanks!!
 
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You should have bought an eBay ir filter from china. Just a few dollars isn't a big deal if you end up not liking it. I have one and it works for those few times I do shoot ir. I guess if you are really committing to it $200 bucks may be worth it but that's a steep curve to jump onto just starting out.
 
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StoneNYC

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You should have bought an eBay ir filter from china. Just a few dollars isn't a big deal if you end up not liking it. I have one and it works for those few times I do shoot ir. I guess if you are really committing to it $200 bucks may be worth it but that's a steep curve to jump onto just starting out.

For the kind of timeframe I have, eBay wouldn't work, and I've bought a filter or two from there, always dissatisfied, the Hoya I bought as I mentioned earlier came from eBay and then I went to shoot with it and any moisture had this weird bubling effect as if the surface had water bubbles underneath like when paint bubbles, and it left my images with distortion, but the B+W filter I had on the same day, and that didn't do that, so that's when I decided no eBay and no Hoya, It's well worth the extra money if you take into account the cost of the flight to the Grand Canyon and hotel, permit, time, energy, to come home to bad shots, thats more costly. I'm LESS penny wise, pound foolish than I used to be...LESS... hehe
 
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Temperature has no effect on photographic IR film. The IR that constitutes hot/cold is way out of the range of photographic film.

I have seen IR shots of conifers in the snow, and it was really nifty to see white foliage with white snow. That was done with Kodak, though. Usually when I do it with a 092 filter and Efke or Ilford, the conifers will be a light grey. One time when I was underneath conifers, in the deep shade and the sunlight couldn't filter, the IR made things look like a white fairy land. You might want to look for settings like that. Remember to bracket N, +/-1, +/-2, and you should be good, especially for your first trip with it.
 
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StoneNYC

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Temperature has no effect on photographic IR film. The IR that constitutes hot/cold is way out of the range of photographic film.

I have seen IR shots of conifers in the snow, and it was really nifty to see white foliage with white snow. That was done with Kodak, though. Usually when I do it with a 092 filter and Efke or Ilford, the conifers will be a light grey. One time when I was underneath conifers, in the deep shade and the sunlight couldn't filter, the IR made things look like a white fairy land. You might want to look for settings like that. Remember to bracket N, +/-1, +/-2, and you should be good, especially for your first trip with it.

I hesitate to bracket +/- 2 as well as 1 because I'm shooting 120, that means only 2 images per roll!

Now this is a case for providing 220 that no one can argue "too much film" at lol

Hmm so, what about the sun, I've never seen an IR shot where the image was aimed at the sun...

Is this possible? Was thinking of shooting a shot where the sun is in the sky overlooking the canyon (something to do while I wait for golden hour).


~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk
 

ntenny

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Hmm so, what about the sun, I've never seen an IR shot where the image was aimed at the sun...

Is this possible? Was thinking of shooting a shot where the sun is in the sky overlooking the canyon (something to do while I wait for golden hour).

I've done it once or twice. It didn't really look any different from the sun in visible light; just a big blown-out highlight. If you have a composition where the sun in the frame would work well in visible light, it should work well in IR, and vice versa.

-NT
 

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Stone, I use this film all the time and in every case, ISO 6 with an R72 has proven to be dead on. I have even used it with my iPhone app called Lightmeter which is essentially a spot meter and it looks great. I would not bracket the under side of ISO 6, there is no point. Unless you are ducking into thick cover, don't do three frame brackets, one at metered value and one at 1 stop over will be fine.

I soup my IR400 in HC-110 / B and it looks great. Xtol looks good too but you need to overdevelop it a bit as well as the Ilford SFX stuff. Also, the Rollie stuff does well with a couple minutes of tempered pre-wet as it seems to be prone to streaking, FYI.....
 
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StoneNYC

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Stone, I use this film all the time and in every case, ISO 6 with an R72 has proven to be dead on. I have even used it with my iPhone app called Lightmeter which is essentially a spot meter and it looks great. I would not bracket the under side of ISO 6, there is no point. Unless you are ducking into thick cover, don't do three frame brackets, one at metered value and one at 1 stop over will be fine.

I soup my IR400 in HC-110 / B and it looks great. Xtol looks good too but you need to overdevelop it a bit as well as the Ilford SFX stuff. Also, the Rollie stuff does well with a couple minutes of tempered pre-wet as it seems to be prone to streaking, FYI.....

Thanks the notes! Yea not bracketing that much is better if possible so good to know.

And know anything about Ilfsol 3 or DD-X with that? I can purchase some HC-110 B if I need to of course but is that significantly better of a choice?


~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk
 

PKM-25

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I have no experience with Ilfosol or DDX but HC-110 is nearly as economical as Rodinal in that you mix only what you need each run. So for example, in dillution B it is 1+31 or 16ml of concentrate per 484ml of water to come up with the 500ml for a roll of 120, about .40 cents.

I find IR-400 in HC-110 to be a bit tamer in grain and contrast compared to Rodinal 1+50 but still punchy enough for striking IR effect at grade 2 and for a scan that you simply have to set black and maybe do a touch of highlight burn.

And I know some people complain about the syrupy nature of HC-110 but I simply overcome that by pouring the majority of the measured concentrate out of my small 50ml graduate into my larger 1L dedicated developer graduate first. I then have the tempered and measured amount of water in another 1L container and I just keep pouring it into the small 50ml graduate that the concentrate was in and then pour that into the developer graduate until I have gone through all the measured water. It pretty much rinses all the HC-110 into the mix by the time I have ran all the water into it, no waste, no want....

Even though I have plenty of stock of developers like D76, 1D-II and Rodinal, I have pretty much standardized with Xtol and HC-110 which work great for both tank and reel and rotary processing...
 
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StoneNYC

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I have no experience with Ilfosol or DDX but HC-110 is nearly as economical as Rodinal in that you mix only what you need each run. So for example, in dillution B it is 1+31 or 16ml of concentrate per 484ml of water to come up with the 500ml for a roll of 120, about .40 cents.

I find IR-400 in HC-110 to be a bit tamer in grain and contrast compared to Rodinal 1+50 but still punchy enough for striking IR effect at grade 2 and for a scan that you simply have to set black and maybe do a touch of highlight burn.

And I know some people complain about the syrupy nature of HC-110 but I simply overcome that by pouring the majority of the measured concentrate out of my small 50ml graduate into my larger 1L dedicated developer graduate first. I then have the tempered and measured amount of water in another 1L container and I just keep pouring it into the small 50ml graduate that the concentrate was in and then pour that into the developer graduate until I have gone through all the measured water. It pretty much rinses all the HC-110 into the mix by the time I have ran all the water into it, no waste, no want....

Even though I have plenty of stock of developers like D76, 1D-II and Rodinal, I have pretty much standardized with Xtol and HC-110 which work great for both tank and reel and rotary processing...

Gotcha, thanks ill give it a try.


~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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StoneNYC

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Ok guys thanks! Headed out!

7u5apeby.jpg


This will be me again in about 2 days! (Taken during my Kodachrome trip in December 2010 on a tripod and timer)

Thanks for all the help! Will post results after the 15th


~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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Good luck!

(And if the vegitation is like those grasses and shrubs, forget the IR "false-wood" effect. Won't happen.)
 

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Stone:

This may be too late, but just in case it isn't ...

Your question about the effect of temperature indicates to me that there is something about (near) IR film that you are misunderstanding.

None of us use a meter that will tell us how much film sensitive radiation there is in the scenes we photograph.

All of our calculations are based on:

1) we know that the light we see reflected off our subject is accompanied by at least some IR that our film is sensitive too; and
2) we have or gain experience as we go about what the percentage is of IR light reflecting from the subject.

As an example, we learn from experience that in certain weather conditions, at certain times of day there is a relatively high percentage of ambient IR in the total ambient light available. We also learn that certain types of vegetation reflect more of that IR than other types do.

If we didn't use something like a very dense R72 filter, we would never see any IR effect on the film, because the film is much more sensitive to visible light then it is to IR.

We have no way to meter the IR. We do, however, have a way to meter the visible light, and through experience we learn how much IR is around when a certain amount of visible light around, so we do have a way of approaching the problem.

First, we put something like an R72 filter on the camera, which blocks out almost all the visible light, but transmits the IR. We do not meter through that filter - use a separate hand-held meter.

Next, based on our experience that indicates that for any level of illumination we see, there are about 6 stops less intense IR present as well, we measure the visible light, and extrapolate the IR by assuming there are 6 stops less available. We accomplish that extrapolation by metering at EI 6, which is 6 stops less than EI 400.

Finally, we expose the film through the filter, and bracket around that 6 stops less estimate, because it isn't nearly as accurate as our usual metering technology.

Hope this helps.
 

MattKing

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Good luck!

(And if the vegitation is like those grasses and shrubs, forget the IR "false-wood" effect. Won't happen.)

Brian:

Your observation is correct, but as wikipedia states:

"The ("Wood") effect is named after the infrared photography pioneer Robert W. Wood, and not after the material wood, which does not strongly reflect infrared"
 
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StoneNYC

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Stone:

This may be too late, but just in case it isn't ...

Your question about the effect of temperature indicates to me that there is something about (near) IR film that you are misunderstanding.

None of us use a meter that will tell us how much film sensitive radiation there is in the scenes we photograph.

All of our calculations are based on:

1) we know that the light we see reflected off our subject is accompanied by at least some IR that our film is sensitive too; and
2) we have or gain experience as we go about what the percentage is of IR light reflecting from the subject.

As an example, we learn from experience that in certain weather conditions, at certain times of day there is a relatively high percentage of ambient IR in the total ambient light available. We also learn that certain types of vegetation reflect more of that IR than other types do.

If we didn't use something like a very dense R72 filter, we would never see any IR effect on the film, because the film is much more sensitive to visible light then it is to IR.

We have no way to meter the IR. We do, however, have a way to meter the visible light, and through experience we learn how much IR is around when a certain amount of visible light around, so we do have a way of approaching the problem.

First, we put something like an R72 filter on the camera, which blocks out almost all the visible light, but transmits the IR. We do not meter through that filter - use a separate hand-held meter.

Next, based on our experience that indicates that for any level of illumination we see, there are about 6 stops less intense IR present as well, we measure the visible light, and extrapolate the IR by assuming there are 6 stops less available. We accomplish that extrapolation by metering at EI 6, which is 6 stops less than EI 400.

Finally, we expose the film through the filter, and bracket around that 6 stops less estimate, because it isn't nearly as accurate as our usual metering technology.

Hope this helps.

Thanks, this was the conclusion of the many posts above but much more concise :smile:

Ok zzzzz hike out tomorrow, just concerned the post office had trouble tracking the film today... Ugh....


~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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StoneNYC

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Update:

Just got back... So sad news is that the post office failed to both deliver the film, and deliver the newly bought filter on time so I didn't have any of it until after I hiked out.

I was exhausted from huffing it out EARLY because the post office closed on Saturday at 1pm so when I got out and finally got the film/filter I was really exhausted and decided it was smart to for sleep for a whole, which was good since now I'm super sick and probably would be worse if I had stayed to shoot more.

Unfortunately after all that I only shot one roll and only some random landscape on the drive back to the airport just to have shot something....

This is what we call EPIC FAIL.

Thankfully I thought ahead and brought a few rolls on the plane so I still got some shots of the canyon just no IR shots... I guess this is an excuse for going back....

As Dan suggested I'm going to order some of the B&W developer I don't have and I ended up shooting a lot of Velvia/provia/ektachrome so I'll have to order an E-6 kit anyway.

A decent haul even for a failure...

a6u8upud.jpg

ma2ujy7a.jpg


It will be a well at least before I can get anything bought, but I'll post, thanks for the last minute help.


~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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StoneNYC

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Sorry to hear about the trip.... I've learned the hard way, to use FedX / UPS for shipments, I want on a specific time.

And now so have I ... sadly not only did the shipment from myself arrive late so did the B&H filter sent from the store so now I have to call B&H to see if I can get my money back... lol uh... phone calls all day, the worst part about the trip isn't that it's over its dealing with all the paperwork and things that have happened since you left...
 
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StoneNYC

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Well, the results are in, sort of... stand by for scanning, but from the looks of the negatives everything is very ... not exposed properly. As I mentioned somewhere else, the post office did NOT deliver my film on time and neither did they deliver the IR filter even if the film HAD arrived, so needless to say I've gotten $40 in refunds from B&H and will attempt $40 recovery on Monday or Tuesday from my local post office.

So I only had a chance to shoot some of the scenery on the side of the road driving back to the airport... I did as suggested and measured for EI6, Dev in HC-110, few minutes pre-wet. Will let you know in 20 minutes or so... but it looks "miss-exposed"
 
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StoneNYC

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Either IR film is really super grainy, or HC-110 is not the Dev for me. I've pushed Tri-x 400 to 3200 and gotten WAY higher accutence, it's like a mucky mess. Maybe I'm pixel peeping too much, the overall "look" is pleasing, but even the slightest zoom and there's an obvious muddy appearance. Some certainly were over exposed, some only slightly enough that they scanned with no adjustment. Even the few images I didn't have to adjust pre-scan look muddy, the actual grain in the soft areas seems "fine" but nothing is sharp and the falloff from light to dark is just bleh... now Dan don't take this in any kind of insulting way AT ALL, I had NO experience with this film so I think taking your advice was a valuable choice and I really wouldn't have had anything if it weren't for you and the others who gave input. Seems as far as exposure, the most natural exposure was the one I took as a joke out of my car door at a gas station while my GF was filling the tank (yep that's how I roll haha, no seriously it was just her turn to pay, we were sharing in gas expenses), I used my in camera meter instead of the spot meter. Really motivated to get better imagery and I wish I had actually stopped and taken some conifers in the snow and some close up shots rather than mostly wide's, I was kind of in a hurry to catch the plane, just wanted to kill a roll in the wide open landscape.

I set the camera to IR "infinity" in most all shots and I think I had it at f/11 the whole time, so it just shouldn't be this mucky the whole way through.

I'll be posting 5 of the 10 in my gallery but here is an example of the mucky grain I mentioned, is this normal?

RolleiIR-HC110B-Eps3200002-Edit.jpg Screen Shot of Crop.jpg RolleiIR-HC110B-Eps3200002-Edit-2.jpg
 

eddie

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It's never a good idea to travel to a location and use materials (or equipment) with which you're not familiar. This is especially true if it's very different than what you usually use, as IR is. You would have been better served by shooting about 10-12 rolls prior to your trip.
 
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StoneNYC

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oh and the car window one... RolleiIR-HC110B-Eps3200005.jpg

The actual "nice" images will be for the subscribers in my gallery :smile:
 
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StoneNYC

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It's never a good idea to travel to a location and use materials (or equipment) with which you're not familiar. This is especially true if it's very different than what you usually use, as IR is. You would have been better served by shooting about 10-12 rolls prior to your trip.

Well that was helpful thanks... considering I only have 9 rolls of the stuff and it costs a boat load, that's not really very helpful. This was a last minute decision and I'm not really worried about the exposure issues or how not nice the images are, it was a test run so I'm not worried about that, I just want to understand the grain issue, that and I promised I would post the results for the helpful people who gave insight into this unusual film...
 
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StoneNYC

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OK, re-reading that, I sound like a dick, my apologies Eddie, that was a snap answer, sorry, you were only making your own suggestions that you felt would be helpful, thanks for the advice and I'll take it under consideration.
 
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