Ole
Moderator
Sometimes it's nice to be a dinosaur 
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I'm in a philosopher mood...
What do you drive: a car with a hand crank to start or a car with cruise control?
How's your refrigerator: One that uses ice blocks to cool the beer (Ole, yours winter one doesn't count if you have one) or one you plug in the wall and forget?
And your record player - you hand crank it to play each side of a record or one where you just put some CD's inside and let it go?
So, we use analog photo equipment for the sole reason WE LIKE THE WET PROCESS. We are craftspersons in this technique.
I really believe that, in the future, when digital becomes vastly improved (and, given time, this will happen), we will still be using it for this sole reason.
Jorge O
What do you drive: a car with a hand crank to start or a car with cruise control?
How's your refrigerator: One that uses ice blocks to cool the beer (Ole, yours winter one doesn't count if you have one) or one you plug in the wall and forget?
And your record player - you hand crank it to play each side of a record or one where you just put some CD's inside and let it go?
So, we use analog photo equipment for the sole reason WE LIKE THE WET PROCESS. We are craftspersons in this technique.
I really believe that, in the future, when digital becomes vastly improved (and, given time, this will happen), we will still be using it for this sole reason.
Jorge O
Jorge, I have a car with a crank start 
Ole
Moderator
I don't crank my car to start it. But sometimes, particularly on wet and cold mornings, I have to push it to the head of the hill, and start it going down toward the village. I sometimes wish I HAD a crank...
My refrigerator's plugged into the wall. Unless I want something cooled really fast in the winter, in which case it goes outside
I have vinyl records, CD's, and stone plates (really, they're stone!). As soon as digit*l gets as good in photography as it is in audio, I'll slither over. But that doesn't mean there'll suddenly be a heap of good old stuff on ebay; I intend to keep my toys until I'm older than they are. As my oldest LF camera is now 69 years old, that is not likely to happen...
My refrigerator's plugged into the wall. Unless I want something cooled really fast in the winter, in which case it goes outside
I have vinyl records, CD's, and stone plates (really, they're stone!). As soon as digit*l gets as good in photography as it is in audio, I'll slither over. But that doesn't mean there'll suddenly be a heap of good old stuff on ebay; I intend to keep my toys until I'm older than they are. As my oldest LF camera is now 69 years old, that is not likely to happen...
Bmac
You do not live in a home - you live in a museum!
Ole
I have a friend that was married to a Danish lady. He found it very unusual that, when he went to visit her family, there was a winter refrigerator - no motor, just a hole in the house wall covered by a steel plate, so the steel plate faced 'outside'. It was cold enought so the electric one could be unplugged for months...
Jorge O
You do not live in a home - you live in a museum!
Ole
I have a friend that was married to a Danish lady. He found it very unusual that, when he went to visit her family, there was a winter refrigerator - no motor, just a hole in the house wall covered by a steel plate, so the steel plate faced 'outside'. It was cold enought so the electric one could be unplugged for months...
Jorge O
Sean
Admin
Ole said:
Ole, I have some images from a digital imaging class in College stored on some hard cased 3inch magneto optical disks. Not sure if any shop in NZ can read them, so I guess I'll have to send it over seas and pay shipping, etc. But I do have many negatives from the same time period, no issues with them..
Ole
Moderator
I have to admit I'd almost managed to forget the punch cards - haven't used them since 1978...
To boot my (well, kind of - I only was responsible for it) first computer, I had to use a punched tape generated in a TTY at boot time!
Would you believe it had 64K CORE memory?
Jorge O
Would you believe it had 64K CORE memory?
Jorge O
All a bunch of juniors. I became fairly proficient in the use of the Curta Calculator. Didn't need batteeries - or any electricity, for that matter.
I still have a Pickett Slide Rule around here somewhere.
I still have a Pickett Slide Rule around here somewhere.
Dunno, but this thread is going a bit off topic. But since it's the weekend...
I have what's probably the world mintest 30cm bamboo slide rule.
I've always wanted one, and I purchased it in Tokyo together with my first electronic calculator.
When I compared both...
Jorge O
I have what's probably the world mintest 30cm bamboo slide rule.
I've always wanted one, and I purchased it in Tokyo together with my first electronic calculator.
When I compared both...
Jorge O
*Clap Clap*
People. People. We all have the oldest computer on the planet. Our fingers. Followed shortly by a stick and some open ground.
Well there will always be a way to get stuff off those old disks and readers. We didnt suddenly go from Punch card to DVD did we. The trick is finding the equipment to use.
Wouldnt you have hated to be a computer engineer during WW1? they didnt even have buttons. Just a wall of vacume tubes that had to be manualy adjusted, one by one, to calculate anything.
whats funny is on die Data Cashe hasnt changed from 64k. Level 1 cashe is still 64k large. Then you get level 2 and it just goes up from there.
People. People. We all have the oldest computer on the planet. Our fingers. Followed shortly by a stick and some open ground.
Well there will always be a way to get stuff off those old disks and readers. We didnt suddenly go from Punch card to DVD did we. The trick is finding the equipment to use.
Wouldnt you have hated to be a computer engineer during WW1? they didnt even have buttons. Just a wall of vacume tubes that had to be manualy adjusted, one by one, to calculate anything.
whats funny is on die Data Cashe hasnt changed from 64k. Level 1 cashe is still 64k large. Then you get level 2 and it just goes up from there.
Valthonis
Fingers are base 10!
Fingers are base 10!
[quote="Valthonis: ....Wouldnt you have hated to be a computer engineer during WW1? they didnt even have buttons. Just a wall of vacume tubes that had to be manualy adjusted, one by one, to calculate anything. quote]
Val, try WWII. They hardle even had vacuum tubes in WWI. They did however have analog (moving chart) computers (yes, real computers) for fire control. And I d'no, after spending time wrapped inside a steel tube with 24 ICBMs all with multiple-targeted warheads, aimed and fired with the push of a button (or two, or three), I think I prefer the old fashioned mechanical things best.
My associates at MIT (those boys never studied - too much free time) once did a MTTF on the ENIAC system, the first true electronic computer. It turned out to be (theoretically...) 1.4 milliseconds. It is a wonder the d... thing worked AT ALL! We've come a long way (havent we?).
Val, try WWII. They hardle even had vacuum tubes in WWI. They did however have analog (moving chart) computers (yes, real computers) for fire control. And I d'no, after spending time wrapped inside a steel tube with 24 ICBMs all with multiple-targeted warheads, aimed and fired with the push of a button (or two, or three), I think I prefer the old fashioned mechanical things best.
My associates at MIT (those boys never studied - too much free time) once did a MTTF on the ENIAC system, the first true electronic computer. It turned out to be (theoretically...) 1.4 milliseconds. It is a wonder the d... thing worked AT ALL! We've come a long way (havent we?).
I remember when I was in grade school, my oldest brother sweating out some senior high physics assignment, slide rule smoking in his hands.
If I remember correctly, the PBS series "Connections" (the original and one of the best series ever produced for TV IMHO) argued that the first computer was used in the selection of what thread to weave at one point on looms to make sophisticated patterns in the late 1800s. Also around 1900 a punch card system was used to keep track, catalogue or "compute"statistics on immigrants coming into Ellis Island station.
If I remember correctly, the PBS series "Connections" (the original and one of the best series ever produced for TV IMHO) argued that the first computer was used in the selection of what thread to weave at one point on looms to make sophisticated patterns in the late 1800s. Also around 1900 a punch card system was used to keep track, catalogue or "compute"statistics on immigrants coming into Ellis Island station.
Jim
If I remember correctly, this was the Hollerith machine. From it's evolution through history, a small company was born - IBM.
If someone is interested, we may start an off topic thread re computer history - I have some nice ones heard from some real old timers (they were old whwn i was just starting).
Jorge O
If I remember correctly, this was the Hollerith machine. From it's evolution through history, a small company was born - IBM.
If someone is interested, we may start an off topic thread re computer history - I have some nice ones heard from some real old timers (they were old whwn i was just starting).
Jorge O
And let's not forget Charles Babbage's Difference and Analytical Engines and Ada Lovelace, Countess of Lovelace, the mathematical brain behind it.
Jorge O
Jorge O
I remember that TV series well. It did stretch those connections a bit. Not to start a war or anything, but to be absolutely accurate, the weaving apparatus was programmable with a form of punch card but it did not "compute" anything. That was done by the "programmer" - puncher of the cards. One might infer that it was digitally controlled, and it was binary in nature. There were however ancient (well, very old) computers in use far earlier than the electronic revolution types. The fire control computers used to target torpedoes in WWII were definitely computers and definitely not digital.Jim68134 said:
To go back up several messages ...
One of the drivers for Moore's law (possibly the main driver) does not apply for digital sensors. Much of the performance gain (and price drop) comes from continually shrinking the size of the chips. Shrinking chips for digital capture is not a good idea, as this inevitably increases noise levels (as does increasing the number of pixels for unit area). As a result I don't expect to see the same rate of improvement capability and price in digital equipment as has become normal in other areas of consumer electronics.
One of the drivers for Moore's law (possibly the main driver) does not apply for digital sensors. Much of the performance gain (and price drop) comes from continually shrinking the size of the chips. Shrinking chips for digital capture is not a good idea, as this inevitably increases noise levels (as does increasing the number of pixels for unit area). As a result I don't expect to see the same rate of improvement capability and price in digital equipment as has become normal in other areas of consumer electronics.
Welcome. I'm a fairly new member myself. You should try and use your mother's darkroom when she gets it setup. You might become addicted to conventional photography, at least for black & white. It's magic, but the magic in digital photography is short-lived. Someone mentioned the demise of 8-track audio tape as an analogy. That's one example, I guess, but there are some even within computers. 30 years ago, I took B&W pictures of my sister's wedding, and made some 8 x 10 glossies myself, by hand. Now, 30 years later, those prints still look like I just made them. However, on the computer side, I've owned a computer since my first one in 1979. I still have stuff on Apple disquettes that I can never use, files that will never again be opened. It's virtually impossible to even find an Apple II that can use them today. Mine bit the dust almost a decade ago. And that's not evening thinking about the stuff I had on the audio cassettes my Radio Shack TRS-80 Model III used. Yes, I could have found a way to transfer them via modem when I switched years ago, but the point is, who had time for that. Even now, I'm having a problem backing up just the pictures I scanned with my film scanner. Those suckers eat up a lot disk space, and it takes concerted willpower to get it done. But I have a shoebox that contains virtually every photo I took since 1980, and some from 1975 when I bought my first 35mm camera. Barring a catastrophe that would also destroy CD's, etc., the negatives will outlive me, I'm sure, and will be printable even if they fade a bit. Once you commit to the digital gods, they have you by the you-know-whats. There has never been anything done by man on a computer that didn't become a bottomless pit of time and expense in the longrun - even though it may look like a good idea at the time. Picture quality, resolution, etc. - well, I don't really care. Some of the most compelling pictures today are made with cheap plastic lensed Holgas. If and when the time ever comes that film is truly dead, I would rather give up photography than have it become one more thing I have to use a computer for.
A *shoebox*??? I have a tall cabinet that's over-filled, and that doesn't count the many negs that "disappeared" when I got divorced nearly a decade ago.
Digital is not going to disappear. It's not BAD, quite the opposite. But it has its own character. There is space and strength for both.
Storage is a bugaboo for digital -- a stack of CDs is harder to sort-through that a binder full of negative pages. It needs more long-term maintenance too.
KB
(currently torn between buying a 14mm lens for his digital EOS or a 21mm for his 35mm Contax...)
Digital is not going to disappear. It's not BAD, quite the opposite. But it has its own character. There is space and strength for both.
Storage is a bugaboo for digital -- a stack of CDs is harder to sort-through that a binder full of negative pages. It needs more long-term maintenance too.
KB
(currently torn between buying a 14mm lens for his digital EOS or a 21mm for his 35mm Contax...)
Again, Welcome!
My first calculator did not even have a decimal point - you had to be able to figure that one in your head! My first computer (bought for my kids) was 16k upgraded from 4K and had to be programmed by hand in basic. You could save programs on a cassette tape. My oldest boy is now a computer engineer with a masters degree and my younger is a skilled user in the financial field and as a hobbyist. My oldest (a daughter) is a software specialist in library systems. None of them wanted to follow in their father's footsteps (Ob/Gyn) due to the lifestyle and hours involved (probably the reason I have not yet submitted any images). I am certainly glad they have the opportunity to do these things!
John
My first calculator did not even have a decimal point - you had to be able to figure that one in your head! My first computer (bought for my kids) was 16k upgraded from 4K and had to be programmed by hand in basic. You could save programs on a cassette tape. My oldest boy is now a computer engineer with a masters degree and my younger is a skilled user in the financial field and as a hobbyist. My oldest (a daughter) is a software specialist in library systems. None of them wanted to follow in their father's footsteps (Ob/Gyn) due to the lifestyle and hours involved (probably the reason I have not yet submitted any images). I am certainly glad they have the opportunity to do these things!
John
harveyje said:
Hmm. Might be interesting to discuss "Fine Art Nudes", or is that a little like "Coals to Newcastle"?
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