Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania

cmacd123 · Oct 31, 2014

Xmas said:
As well or in more detail there are three perforation families, (but still simplistically!).
- cine camera for frame to frame registration
- distribution print for wear tolerance
- stills though (my) stills cameras will tolerate cine cameras B&H perfs.
And ECN uses a different CDn from C41 so they would be 'crossed' processed.
.

There is a whole history about how the various perforations came to be over the years. much having to do with the character of Nitrate film.

Not wanting to go too far in this off-topic sub-thread, but Movie Camera negative has BH1866 perfs while Both still camera film, and movie print film has KS1870 perfs. The slight difference in perforation pitch allows contact prints to be made while the film is run around a drum, and compensates for the amount that Nitrate film used to shrink in processing.

The main reason that ECN-2 and C-41 were different was probably that Kodak wanted to keep the lines separate, and with the rem-jet backing being so useful for movie film, having different processes removed any need to adjust formulas for movies to suit the mass market. There were even special movie products line CRI Color Reversal Intermediate, (the product that messed up the restoration of Star-Wars) that had their special process.

Using E-6 stock for movie film was a quick fix when the last Movie Reversal film, EASTMAN Video News Film finally went away, after being kept on life support for years by the Crash Test Labs who used it in High speed cameras to film crash tests. A use that went away when Regulations forced a switch to high speed digital cameras.

Kodak did have to make unspecified changes to first Ektachome 64T and later ektachrome 100D to get it to run smoothly in a Super 8 Cartridge. I don't think that VNF was ever sold as super 8 but at that time Kodachrome was still available. I guess that they had to use an antistatic treatment like that on current ECP Print film. My fingers are crossed that Ferrania will not have that problem with their Super8.

cmacd123 · Oct 31, 2014

Packaging

FILM Ferrania said:
The packaging for the Kickstarter batch is a one-time only design - completely unique and never to be replicated. We will be hiring professionals to create a new identity for the future.
-Dave

I am hoping that your designers are given the run of the packaging archives and include at least a few touches from the past in the new designs. When I saw the pictures in Kickstarter I was immediately taken to a part of my past when Ferrania film in similar packages was an exotic diversion in the better camera stores, Like AGFA, and ADOX. please don't forget your legacy in planing the future.

FILM Ferrania · Oct 31, 2014

Nzoomed said:
since the founders of Film Ferrania are in the motion picture industry, do they have any view on producing colour negative motion picture stock?

If we make an emulsion, we will produce it in all relevant formats. All film is made into "jumbos" and those are then cut into 35mm, 120, 8mm, 16mm, etc. The only cost of producing other formats is opportunity cost. In other words, we must closely watch sales and the general market and make sure that by committing to one format, we aren't sacrificing sales in another format.

Nzoomed said:
Kodak is currently the only producer left of ECN2 films AFAIK and its unknown for how long they will continue to produce it.
I would expect this would create a major gap in the market if they pulled out and could mark the end of such films ever being used, obviously Kodak are the leaders in this area of film, since they have put serious R&D into it in recent years and is the core of their remaining film business.

The only thing I can really say about Kodak is that we hope they figure out how to continue production for as long as possible. The 100+ years of R&D they have put into their products is both invaluable for users, and irreplaceable to the industry at large.

Nzoomed said:
AFAIK, Ferrania pulled out of the motion picture industry sometime before 1985. So Film Ferrania would need to spend alot of time in R&D to come up with a new product in this sector.

We haven't been able to peg the date exactly, but we agree that it was the mid-80s. However, the end of cinema products truly began when 3M took over way back in 1964...

To create something with the beauty and complexity of Vision 3, we will of course have to dedicate unknowable resources to R&D...

Nzoomed said:
So really I guess my point is: Is this a priority for Ferrania in the medium to long term?

In all honesty, we have too many bridges to cross to prioritize anything more than 6 or 8 months into the future.

Nzoomed said:
im guessing that a colour negative film such as Solaris would be the next product you intend to introduce, is it possible that your engineers could create a negative motion picture film based on this emulsion?

We assume this will be possible, but it is only an assumption at this point in time.

Nzoomed said:
Not that i have a requirement to shoot negative motion picture film, im just curious to know what film range you plan on producing in the future, as the market and time sees fit.

As I've said before, we are setting ourselves up to have the potential to produce what the market desires. Beyond that, it's all just speculation and not worth the pixels on this screen.

Nzoomed said:
Also regarding B&W films, P30 was an early motion picture emulsion, could such a film be outsourced in a partnership to another manufacturer such as Ilford(even on a temporary basis until your production has the capacity), or do you intend only to produce your films in Italy?

We have stated that we would love to recreate P30 cinema film at some point in the future - but it's really just an ambition and we haven't yet wrapped our heads around the details.

I can say that anything we sell will be made in Italy. We are discussing various kinds of partnerships with MANY other industry players, but again, this is all just talk until we have the capacity to deliver.

-Dave

FILM Ferrania · Oct 31, 2014

Dr Croubie said:
Sort of related to the last question about ECN, is what about E6 Dupe and/or ECN Print films?
The signs are all there that Kodak are going to pull the whole plug on ECN very soon (although well done for already surviving a 90% drop, but I don't think it makes business-sense to keep going if it drops any more).
Unless something drastic happens, I'm guessing that they'll pull the ECN plug within 2 years, frozen stock will be all but gone by 2020.
In short, when that happens, do you hope (and more importantly, are you planning) to plug that gap with your more realistically/economically-sized production?

There is no boat to keep afloat if we don't plug as many holes as we are able to plug... That's really the best answer I can give.

FILM Ferrania · Oct 31, 2014

ww12345 said:
One question - your 16mm cine film: can it be double perfed? My Kodak has double perf wheels...

As a regular product, double-perf 16mm is is unlikely. But if there is suddenly sufficient demand to produce a batch every once in a while, who knows?

Perhaps you can rally your fellow double-perfers to the cause?

FILM Ferrania · Oct 31, 2014

BAC1967 said:
I was really hoping to see Regular 8mm in the Kickstarter, any plans for it in the future?

As with double-perf 16mm, if the market demands 8mm spools, we aim to be able to respond on some level...

Sirius Glass · Oct 31, 2014

Ken Nadvornick said:
People here like to bring up Kodachrome just to rattle the cages of the anti-Kodachrome zealots.

Ken

Yes, you are right. They do not have anything else in life going for them so they bitch about Kodachrome. So I should consider the source of those comments and handle it appropriately. Jes sayin'

FILM Ferrania · Oct 31, 2014

madgardener said:
Dr Crouble beat me to the punch on bring back Kodachrome!

As I'm sure everyone is aware, Kodachrome is a formula and brand name that belongs exclusively to Kodak... Requests for its resurrection should probably be directed to Alaris.

madgardener said:
as for my question: Is there a published spec sheet on the updated Scotch Chrome? I'm specifically thinking color sensitivity and RNS granularity.

There is no new spec sheet until we actually make and test the final product.

There is an old spec sheet on our website, but trying to use it to speculate on our early batches will prove unreliable. We are of course trying to follow the recipe faithfully in order to get film into the market as quickly as possible - but our new stuff will be different.

Ken Nadvornick · Oct 31, 2014

Sirius Glass said:
Yes, you are right. They do not have anything else in life going for them so they bitch about Kodachrome. So I should consider the source of those comments and handle it appropriately. Jes sayin'

Well, that might be a bit of an overzealous attempt at defining a cause/effect relationship, but in principle you do propose to handle it correctly, yes...

Ken

pbromaghin · Oct 31, 2014

This is the most fascinating thread in several years.

ME Super · Oct 31, 2014

This is the most positive (pun intended) color film thread in years. Go Ferrania!

RattyMouse · Oct 31, 2014

Ken Nadvornick said:
Yes...

Truthfully, I have not felt this much optimism toward the medium of film in many years. I realize the realities are still very tough and uncertain. But just the prospect of a positive end game is a wonderful thing to behold.

Ken

Yeah, and in Fujifilm's just released corporate earnings report, they are STILL making far more money in film and film processing than their digital cameras!

RattyMouse · Oct 31, 2014

pbromaghin said:
This is the most fascinating thread in several years.

Yes it is. And it is a clear example to those who constantly berated us for wanting more communication from our film suppliers. Look how much excitement is brought out. Look how much positive energy comes out!

Film has a bright future! The feeling that we are stuck with dinosaurs is disintegrating, with our future tied to exciting, committed companies like Ilford and Ferrania!

Good times!

pdeeh · Oct 31, 2014

RattyMouse said:
Good times!

we're all doomed ...

Dr Croubie · Oct 31, 2014

pdeeh said:
we're all doomed ...

My wallet is doomed...

Sirius Glass · Oct 31, 2014

Posh! Get out there and stimulate the economy! The stock market is up and we are on the way to recovery.

RattyMouse · Oct 31, 2014

Sirius Glass said:
Posh! Get out there and stimulate the economy! The stock market is up and we are on the way to recovery.

I just booked a 7 day trip to Kyoto. This is nothing but a trip to take pictures. You KNOW that I'll be stimulating the film economy once I land in Japan. 7 days in Kyoto....i shudder to think how many rolls of film I'm going to blow through.

Dr Croubie · Oct 31, 2014

Sirius Glass said:
Posh! Get out there and stimulate the economy! The stock market is up and we are on the way to recovery.

I just signed up to go back to Uni next year, time to be a poor struggling student again!
Thankfully, I've got enough film and Rodinal to last a few years, so I can cut my photography budget back to practically nothing for a year.

Nzoomed · Nov 1, 2014

Sirius Glass said:
Yes, you are right. They do not have anything else in life going for them so they bitch about Kodachrome. So I should consider the source of those comments and handle it appropriately. Jes sayin'

Even if Ferrania did produce a film like kodachrome, it would require extensive R&D for them to introduce such a film, not to mention that they would have to set up the infrastructure to process it, unless they resurrected some old K-Lab machines that may be floating around! lol

They would be far better off putting their resources into developing a new E6 film that could give us similar results to Kodachrome, or E100g, E100GX or a finer grained Agfa Aviphot type film.

Kodachrome was great, but i cant really complain about the E6 offerings that Kodak had. Im confident that Ferrania will become leaders in the E6 market in the years to come Its a good gap in the market to fill, and I feel is top priority for Ferrania to work on before moving on to other films.

I dont want to see any more E6 labs close down.

Xmas · Nov 1, 2014

Nzoomed said:
Even if Ferrania did produce a film like kodachrome, it would require extensive R&D for them to introduce such a film, not to mention that they would have to set up the infrastructure to process it, unless they resurrected some old K-Lab machines that may be floating around! lol

They would be far better off putting their resources into developing a new E6 film that could give us similar results to Kodachrome, or E100g, E100GX or a finer grained Agfa Aviphot type film.

Kodachrome was great, but i cant really complain about the E6 offerings that Kodak had. Im confident that Ferrania will become leaders in the E6 market in the years to come Its a good gap in the market to fill, and I feel is top priority for Ferrania to work on before moving on to other films.

I dont want to see any more E6 labs close down.

E6 Labs are going to close for confidence and volume.
Rudolph is not going to put Kodachrome25 in your stocking this year.

railwayman3 · Nov 1, 2014

Xmas said:
E6 Labs are going to close for confidence and volume.
Rudolph is not going to put Kodachrome25 in your stocking this year.

Some E6 labs will close. But there will be a niche for the ones remaining, just as there are hundreds of small businesses making or supplying items and services in tiny quantities for the most obscure of hobbies and interests.

(Not sure what Rudolph's shortage of Kodachrome has to do with anything?)

LJH · Nov 1, 2014

Jobo is still supporting home processing with high quality equipment. Tetenal supplies quality E6 chemicals that are easy to get, easy to use and produce great results.

E6 will still be available and processable.

The difference that I see is that recreational E6 Processors will offer their services to those in their local community. Win/win/win stuff. They get paid to use their expensive equipment. E6 shooters get personalised service. And Jobo and Tetenal keep making $$$.

Nzoomed · Nov 1, 2014

LJH said:
Jobo is still supporting home processing with high quality equipment. Tetenal supplies quality E6 chemicals that are easy to get, easy to use and produce great results.

E6 will still be available and processable.

The difference that I see is that recreational E6 Processors will offer their services to those in their local community. Win/win/win stuff. They get paid to use their expensive equipment. E6 shooters get personalised service. And Jobo and Tetenal keep making $$$.

Quite possible, but those Tetenal kits are only a 3 step process arent they?
I believe the 6 step E6 process is the most reliable and ensures archivalbility, etc

madgardener · Nov 1, 2014

Sirius Glass said:
Again the the Kodachrome! Kodachrome produced muddy skies. The US will ask the British monarchy to take over and Russia with be ruled by a Czar before Kodachrome returns.

Kodachrome green of summers and makes the world like a sunny day, oh yeah!....

Seriously though, I am glad to have been able to say I used it. I just wish I could find a processor to process it as a BW film. I have a roll my late father in law had stashed away in a drawer and it's important enough I don't want to practice on it.

John Salim · Nov 1, 2014

Nzoomed said:
Quite possible, but those Tetenal kits are only a 3 step process arent they?
I believe the 6 step E6 process is the most reliable and ensures archivalbility, etc

Tetenal also make the proper E-6 full 6 bath version ( .... been making them for Kodak for years ), and is available in two sizes.

John S

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