Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania

Ken Nadvornick · Oct 30, 2014

FILM Ferrania said:
Keep those questions coming...

OK...

We have heard a lot on this site regarding the issue of reengineering films to be compatible with today's more demanding environmental standards.

More specifically, we have often been led to believe that the banning of certain specific ingredients and chemicals used in the manufacture of older films can sometimes become an insurmountable obstacle to their continued production. Meaning that the sourcing and integration of suitable replacement ingredients and chemicals simply becomes too expensive a proposition to successfully pencil out.

Given that Film Ferrania initially intends to reintroduce an updated transparency film based upon just such an older established product, will (or did) these sorts of concerns impact that product reintroduction?

And what of any subsequent products? Might there be similar concerns and issues with those in the future?

Ken

FILM Ferrania · Oct 30, 2014

Ken Nadvornick said:
More specifically, we have often been led to believe that the banning of certain specific ingredients and chemicals used in the manufacture of older films can sometimes become an insurmountable obstacle to their continued production.

This is my understanding as well - however I also understand that these are issues that the industry dealt with many years ago, for the most part...

Ken Nadvornick said:
Given that Film Ferrania initially intends to reintroduce an updated transparency film based upon just such an older established product, will (or did) these sorts of concerns impact that product reintroduction?

The Scotch Chrome formula was chosen as a starting point specifically because it didn't require any serious R&D or chemical replacements. Our team has actually produced this film in the past in the very building we call home today and it complies with all modern environmental laws concerning its production. In fact, I've been told that Ferrania had very progressive environmental policies and long ago worked the nasty stuff out of their production.

Ken Nadvornick said:
And what of any subsequent products? Might there be similar concerns and issues with those in the future?

We don't really foresee any problems. If we dig into the 3M archives (which we inherited) and pull out a formula that uses a banned chemical, then we just can't make it the same way. This doesn't mean the formula is dead. It simply means that we won't be able to make that emulsion until we have the internal resources to do some R&D. Or we simply put the "bad" formula back in the archives and grab the next one...

-Dave

FILM Ferrania · Oct 30, 2014

Trond said:
Will you in the future be able to coat wider rolls than with your current small coating machine?

Yes we will - however it's a distant ambition at this point. We must first max-out our capacity to such a degree that we have no other choice but to modify the equipment.

The good news is that we have already identified an EU-based manufacturer that can make new components to our specs, when or if we need them.

-Dave

Ken Nadvornick · Oct 30, 2014

Thanks Dave. I had a suspicion that the first product out of the gate wasn't going to be adversely impacted by those concerns.

Do you expect that there could be any changes to that initial product between release of the KickStarter rewards version and the eventual available-to-the-public version? Or is the KS version going to be the final current iteration of that product into the foreseeable future?

Meaning, when I test my KS reward rolls can I expect to eventually purchase more of the exact same?

(And as an aside, while not privy to the hard data my sense is that 3,237 views for a thread that is merely 24½ hours old may be a new APUG record? Or if not, then close to it?)

Ken

FILM Ferrania · Oct 30, 2014

Ken Nadvornick said:
Do you expect that there could be any changes to that initial product between release of the KickStarter rewards version and the eventual available-to-the-public version? Or is the KS version going to be the final current iteration of that product into the foreseeable future? Meaning, when I test my KS reward rolls can I expect to eventually purchase more of the exact same?

This is hard to say for sure, but I think it would be safe to expect minor batch-to-batch improvements over the first several runs.

Ask me again in a couple of months!

-Dave

Dr Croubie · Oct 30, 2014

Ken Nadvornick said:
(And as an aside, while not privy to the hard data my sense is that 3,237 views for a thread that is merely 24½ hours old may be a new APUG record? Or if not, then close to it?)

Not just in views, 8 full pages in 24 hours has got to be nearly a record too.

But more than that, 8 full pages without going off topic even once is definitely a record around here.
Space Hasselblads anyone? Resurrect Kodachrome / Ciba? Proper pronunciation of Ayup?

:munch:

Ken Nadvornick · Oct 30, 2014

Dr Croubie said:
But more than that, 8 full pages without going off topic even once is definitely a record around here.

Well, if this thread were to top the Death of Kodachrome thread, then in metaphysical ways beyond the understanding of merely mortal men I think it would signal the mystical closing of one Book of Film Manufacturing and the opening of the next.

Remember the scene in The Natural when, after watching him strike out, Barbara Hershey as Harriet Bird slowly turns from admiring The Whammer and silently fixes a steady gaze on the young Roy Hobbs?

Ken

StoneNYC · Oct 30, 2014

Welcome!!

Hello Dave!

If I can help it I'll be on that first limited offering of 127!!

Advertising question, will you potentially have some pre-release testers chosen to test out the film's with real world feedback that are not part of FILMferrania? (Beta testers)? Perhaps a contest off the first production run, submissions will be chosen and the winners prize is some film and having their work used on the boxes of product/website? Maybe?

I'll second the positive paper for printing E-6 request. (I know it's potentially costly but there are none still produced).

This thread is amazing, I'll reiterate, you're brave.

~Stone

run2000 · Oct 30, 2014

FILM Ferrania said:
Thanks again to everyone for the welcome messages and best wishes!

Keep those questions coming...

Hi Dave! Good to see you here after having heard you on the FPP a month ago.

What should we expect the shelf life of this batch of chrome to have, and do you expect that to vary between production runs?

Thanks.

Sirius Glass · Oct 30, 2014

Dr Croubie said:
Resurrect Kodachrome

Only in your night mares!

Nzoomed · Oct 30, 2014

FILM Ferrania said:
Thanks again to everyone for the welcome messages and best wishes!

Keep those questions coming...

Hi Dave, Ive got another few questions.
They are regarding motion picture film, since the founders of Film Ferrania are in the motion picture industry, do they have any view on producing colour negative motion picture stock?
Kodak is currently the only producer left of ECN2 films AFAIK and its unknown for how long they will continue to produce it.
I would expect this would create a major gap in the market if they pulled out and could mark the end of such films ever being used, obviously Kodak are the leaders in this area of film, since they have put serious R&D into it in recent years and is the core of their remaining film business.
AFAIK, Ferrania pulled out of the motion picture industry sometime before 1985. So Film Ferrania would need to spend alot of time in R&D to come up with a new product in this sector.
So really I guess my point is: Is this a priority for Ferrania in the medium to long term?
Obviously getting your infrastructure and production capacity up is top priority before any other films are produced, im guessing that a colour negative film such as Solaris would be the next product you intend to introduce, is it possible that your engineers could create a negative motion picture film based on this emulsion?
Not that i have a requirement to shoot negative motion picture film, im just curious to know what film range you plan on producing in the future, as the market and time sees fit.
Also regarding B&W films, P30 was an early motion picture emulsion, could such a film be outsourced in a partnership to another manufacturer such as Ilford(even on a temporary basis until your production has the capacity), or do you intend only to produce your films in Italy?

Anyway, i think you have made the right decision to start off with E6, this film has a significant gap in the market and i want to see more E6 options available and more people shooting the stuff again to keep labs running around the globe.

Dr Croubie · Oct 30, 2014

Sort of related to the last question about ECN, is what about E6 Dupe and/or ECN Print films?

Home-shooters are probably fine with E6, they can look at their home movies at home on their projector on E6.
But for those small and indie film makers who love film, and even the big boys like Tarantino, they'll either need to shoot E6 and then pos-pos dupe it for editing/backups/distribution whatever. Or if you release ECN as a neg, then you'll also need to release a neg-pos Print film for distribution and whatnot too.
(and if you can release 4x5 E6 Dupe films I'll be so happy that I can project chromes all day and not have to worry about burning/fading the original)

The signs are all there that Kodak are going to pull the whole plug on ECN very soon (although well done for already surviving a 90% drop, but I don't think it makes business-sense to keep going if it drops any more).
Unless something drastic happens, I'm guessing that they'll pull the ECN plug within 2 years, frozen stock will be all but gone by 2020.
In short, when that happens, do you hope (and more importantly, are you planning) to plug that gap with your more realistically/economically-sized production?

Question for anyone else who knows, what are the major advantages of ECN over C41? Surely whatever colour-response can be replicated from one to the other near-enough? There's the RemJet to contend with, I know Cine film needs that for day-loading and heat-resistance, it may not make your local lab happy but it can be removed and they can deal with it easy enough if it's 1000ft at a time. Any other reasons why C41 isn't used for Cine?

Nzoomed · Oct 30, 2014

Dr Croubie said:
Question for anyone else who knows, what are the major advantages of ECN over C41? Surely whatever colour-response can be replicated from one to the other near-enough? There's the RemJet to contend with, I know Cine film needs that for day-loading and heat-resistance, it may not make your local lab happy but it can be removed and they can deal with it easy enough if it's 1000ft at a time. Any other reasons why C41 isn't used for Cine?

There are a few slight differences in chemistry, im pretty sure that they are slightly finer grained etc than C41, although alot of this technology is now incorporated in films such as Ektar.
ECN has a slightly lighter orange colour correction mask for printing, not sure on the exact reasons, but could be to help printing, duping or telecineing the film.
The other reason could be that its colour band is slightly different than C41 and doesnt require a darker mask.
Remjet also acts as a lubricant when running through the cameras, so this is essential to prevent wear and damage to the cameras.

ww12345 · Oct 30, 2014

Welcome! I'm so excited that the Kickstarter went through - I love chrome film, even though I haven't had much experience with it...

One question - your 16mm cine film: can it be double perfed? My Kodak has double perf wheels...

BAC1967 · Oct 30, 2014

Dave, I think it's great that you are answering questions here. I'm glad Ferrania decided to start with color reversal, I was worried it was on its way out for good. I've got some Super 8 film coming and I will certainly be buying other formats in the future. I was really hoping to see Regular 8mm in the Kickstarter, any plans for it in the future?

MattKing · Oct 30, 2014

Dr Croubie said:
Question for anyone else who knows, what are the major advantages of ECN over C41? Surely whatever colour-response can be replicated from one to the other near-enough? There's the RemJet to contend with, I know Cine film needs that for day-loading and heat-resistance, it may not make your local lab happy but it can be removed and they can deal with it easy enough if it's 1000ft at a time. Any other reasons why C41 isn't used for Cine?

The ECN materials (for in-camera exposure, and in-projector presentation) are optimized for each other, in that the in-camera exposure material is contrast optimized for either printing on to the projection material, or scanning for later printing on to the projection material. The in-camera exposure material gives really, really low contrast results if printed on to colour paper.

C41 films are much higher in contrast and are contrast matched to RA4 papers.

In addition, the colour response of the two different types of camera films are tailored to the colour response of the two different types of presentation media.

ECN is also designed with the high speed transportation needs of the in-camera movie film in mind.

kraker · Oct 31, 2014

First of all, also from me, a warm welcome here on APUG! Good to see that Film Ferrania is actively looking for interaction with this (sometimes crazy) bunch!

A big thanks to what your company is trying and hoping to achieve, it's wonderful to watch this happen (and be a very, very small part of it).

FILM Ferrania said:
Keep the questions coming!

Let me take you up on that offer!

FILM Ferrania said:
The only things we can clearly state today are what we have already stated in one place or another:

Formats: 135, 120, Super 8, 16mm - a very limited single batch of 127 is also highly likely

Emulsions: 100, 400 and 800/3200 ASA color reversal (chrome) - with 100 ASA at launch and the others later in 2015 or as our production capacity permits

I'll be very happy when I receive my 3 rolls of super 8, and yet, I wonder if another miracle is possible... Would you consider producing single-8?

It's the same emulsion, same format, but different packaging. And I can imagine that that would be the biggest hurdle: obtaining or producing the cassettes and getting them loaded.

P.S.: 800/3200 ASA reversal, now, that sounds interesting, I would love to try that if and when it hits the market.

Xmas · Oct 31, 2014

MattKing said:
The ECN materials (for in-camera exposure, and in-projector presentation) are optimized for each other, in that the in-camera exposure material is contrast optimized for either printing on to the projection material, or scanning for later printing on to the projection material. The in-camera exposure material gives really, really low contrast results if printed on to colour paper.

C41 films are much higher in contrast and are contrast matched to RA4 papers.

In addition, the colour response of the two different types of camera films are tailored to the colour response of the two different types of presentation media.

ECN is also designed with the high speed transportation needs of the in-camera movie film in mind.

As well or in more detail there are three perforation families, (but still simplistically!).

- cine camera for frame to frame registration
- distribution print for wear tolerance
- stills though (my) stills cameras will tolerate cine cameras B&H perfs.

And ECN uses a different CDn from C41 so they would be 'crossed' processed.

The ECN is nice film even just holding a sample of print film to light table...

madgardener · Oct 31, 2014

Dr Crouble beat me to the punch on bring back Kodachrome!

I'm looking forward to getting my rolls of film like everyone else here who contributed. I don't shoot a lot of E-6, mostly in the fall to take advantage of the fall colors, and the occasional landscape shots. My dwindling stock of Kodak E-6 (down to 3 rolls) and with the cost of Velvia I am careful what I choose to shoot.

It's good to see things moving along, and I hope the next steps will be successful.

as for my question: Is there a published spec sheet on the updated Scotch Chrome? I'm specifically thinking color sensitivity and RNS granularity.

Sirius Glass · Oct 31, 2014

Again the the Kodachrome! Kodachrome produced muddy skies. The US will ask the British monarchy to take over and Russia with be ruled by a Czar before Kodachrome returns.

Henning Serger · Oct 31, 2014

FILM Ferrania said:
Hello APUG users!

My name is Dave Bias and I'm the US Director for FILM Ferrania. As most of you know, we have successfully completed our Kickstarter campaign with an amazing 5582 backers and 128% funding.

To all of you who have contributed to the (very active!) threads here on APUG and to those who are also backers - you have our most sincere thanks.

Dear Dave,

welcome!
Very nice to have you and Film Ferrania here!

It is the right move. Communication between the manufacturers and the (potential) customers is an absolutely essential part of a sustainable future for classic film photography.
We are all sitting in one boat. We can only be successful together.

I am especially happy to welcome you here because I've visited the Ferrania factory last autumn and published a report about it in the classic film photography magazine "PhotoKlassik". It was an exceptional visit, extremely interesting and encouraging. And I've very much enjoyed the information exchange and talks with Nicola Baldini, Marco Pagni and Marco Descalzo.
I've seen the potential, the possibilities the film Ferrania project can open up, can develop.
And I am convinced that concentrating and focusing on the numerous market gaps, especially in the colour reversal film market, is absolutely the right strategy.
Filling these gaps, offering products where there is no competitor anymore, will work.
If it is accompanied by an efficient marketing strategy.
And to get in contact with your potential future customers here is one of the first right steps in such a marketing strategy.

Hey, there is something in the air concerning film .
Let's all work together for a sustainable future of classic film photography!

Best regards,
Henning

Ken Nadvornick · Oct 31, 2014

Sirius Glass said:
Again the the Kodachrome! Kodachrome produced muddy skies. The US will ask the British monarchy to take over and Russia with be ruled by a Czar before Kodachrome returns.

People here like to bring up Kodachrome just to rattle the cages of the anti-Kodachrome zealots.

Ken

Ken Nadvornick · Oct 31, 2014

Henning Serger said:
Hey, there is something in the air concerning film

Yes...

Truthfully, I have not felt this much optimism toward the medium of film in many years. I realize the realities are still very tough and uncertain. But just the prospect of a positive end game is a wonderful thing to behold.

Ken

FILM Ferrania · Oct 31, 2014

StoneNYC said:
Advertising question, will you potentially have some pre-release testers chosen to test out the film's with real world feedback that are not part of FILMferrania? (Beta testers)? Perhaps a contest off the first production run, submissions will be chosen and the winners prize is some film and having their work used on the boxes of product/website? Maybe?

When the time is right, we will be offering many different programs. Contests for sure - but for actual testing that yields quantifiable data, we will create a more formalized program.

FILM Ferrania · Oct 31, 2014

run2000 said:
What should we expect the shelf life of this batch of chrome to have, and do you expect that to vary between production runs?

Shelf life is unclear at this time - but expect it to be roughly the same as most film out there. We don't see any reason why this would vary from batch to batch.

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