Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania

Xmas · Aug 28, 2015

flavio81 said:
Yes, the only ISO 640 color film made by 3M/Ferrania was the 640T tungsten slide film.
I'm eager to have them manufacture it again. They do have the formulas and the rights to use the formula, and the factory, so it's not impossible. On the other hand, it is not as easy as "just follow the recipe"; they will have to re-engineer it for the available chemicals, re-scaled process, etc.

Thanks so there is only the question of which film they should re-engineer next, by market research?

flavio81 · Aug 28, 2015

Xmas said:
Thanks so there is only the question of which film they should re-engineer next, by market research?

I think the answer should be logical, you go for either:

a) a good product priced lower than the competition ---> that would be an ISO 100 C41 film

b) a product that fills a void in the market ---> that could be the ISO 400-1600 slide film, or the 640T slide film, or an ISO 800 C41 film in 120 format.

Xmas · Aug 28, 2015

flavio81 said:
I think the answer should be logical, you go for either:

a) a good product priced lower than the competition ---> that would be an ISO 100 C41 film

b) a product that fills a void in the market ---> that could be the ISO 400-1600 slide film, or the 640T slide film, or an ISO 800 C41 film in 120 format.

Today Fuji are dumping rebranded ISO 200 c41 at close to manufacturing or below, it is in all our high turnover cheap shops.

Tomorrow I will give you things might be different.

But their current offer is

Dead Link Removed

?

120 film needs a different base and is lower volume in terms of number of users.

pdeeh · Aug 28, 2015

Xmas said:
Today Fuji are dumping rebranded ISO 200 c41 at close to manufacturing or below, it is in all our high turnover cheap shops.

Could you quote your source of information about Fuji's manufacturing costs?

I'd have assumed they are closely guarded company-confidential data, but of course I could be wrong, and in fact they are matters of public record ...

Roger Cole · Aug 28, 2015

flavio81 said:
I think the answer should be logical, you go for either:

a) a good product priced lower than the competition ---> that would be an ISO 100 C41 film

b) a product that fills a void in the market ---> that could be the ISO 400-1600 slide film, or the 640T slide film, or an ISO 800 C41 film in 120 format.

There is Kodak Portra 800 in 120 so no void there.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk and 100% recycled electrons - because I care.

Xmas · Aug 28, 2015

pdeeh said:
Could you quote your source of information about Fuji's manufacturing costs?

I'd have assumed they are closely guarded company-confidential data, but of course I could be wrong, and in fact they are matters of public record ...

You will recall that Simon Galley indicated that 120 backing paper was bought in at more than manufacturing cost of the 120 film it was wrapped up in. You will know it is generic across Ilfords films

When pound land sell at 1.00 GBP they are paying the reseller rather less...

The reseller in turn pays Fuji less.

The markups might upset you.

Fuji needs to buy in
- the cardboard box
- the cassette

Fuji does not need to cost the master rolls it produced in error. They are written off as a mistake so can sell the product at more than buy in and finishing cost, and still pay staff or share holders something.

The current Agfa Vista in the UK is in a different cassette and box, from earlier in the year. It has been selling better than Fuji expected.

My independent sources say it is selling well.

Agfa APX100 135 was 1.50 in 07, I bought loads of (x10) bricks.

Do you need this coloured in or will this do?

pdeeh · Aug 28, 2015

Xmas said:
Do you need this coloured in or will this do?

Being rude is unnecessary.

I wasn't aware Simon Galley worked for Fuji so I'm not sure that what he has said about 120 film has to do with anything.

Nothing you have said is based in anything other than your personal beliefs and assumptions. You may be correct in those beliefs and assumptions, but as none of us have any way of verifying them (unless we work for Fuji), they are of no value and amount to no more than speculation.

We can any of us say something with all the gravity we can can muster, but it won't make it true.

Sirius Glass · Aug 28, 2015

When did Simon Galley work for Fuji? I did not know that either!

Nzoomed · Aug 28, 2015

flavio81 said:
Yes, the only ISO 640 color film made by 3M/Ferrania was the 640T tungsten slide film.
I'm eager to have them manufacture it again. They do have the formulas and the rights to use the formula, and the factory, so it's not impossible. On the other hand, it is not as easy as "just follow the recipe"; they will have to re-engineer it for the available chemicals, re-scaled process, etc.

The good news though is that every newly developed film made by ferrania on the big boy coater since the 1960's was in fact tested and developed in the LRF, so this should be some advantage to them.

Im also aware that some films they had on the market were made in the LRF at times.

Xmas · Aug 28, 2015

pdeeh said:
Being rude is unnecessary.

I wasn't aware Simon Galley worked for Fuji so I'm not sure that what he has said about 120 film has to do with anything.

Nothing you have said is based in anything other than your personal beliefs and assumptions. You may be correct in those beliefs and assumptions, but as none of us have any way of verifying them (unless we work for Fuji), they are of no value and amount to no more than speculation.

We can any of us say something with all the gravity we can can muster, but it won't make it true.

Had I ment to be rude you would have no trouble detecting it.

I think the points I made can not be disputed and only lead to one conclusion and I do have friends within the trade. For example if you attend a pound land they have not located the Fuji film as though it were a loss leader, and the whole saler one chum got his Fuji from wanted more than pound land was charging. So he bought his film from pound land and sold it for 2.20£.

The vernacular expression for customers in the retail trade is mug punter, I think they got it from a BBC sit com but maybe that is where the BBC got the term.

Where's there are other photo shops that list price lower than wholesale but I'm not in a position to say more. You have mistaken me for some one who cares if you believe me or not.

1L6E6VHF · Aug 29, 2015

flavio81 said:
I think the answer should be logical, you go for either:

a) a good product priced lower than the competition ---> that would be an ISO 100 C41 film

b) a product that fills a void in the market ---> that could be the ISO 400-1600 slide film, or the 640T slide film, or an ISO 800 C41 film in 120 format.

American English expression: "different strokes for different folks". I've never liked grain, and never found a slide film of >100 ISO that impressed me. AGFA's 200 about 1995 was a big disappointment, Provia 400X was bold and sharp - but skies looked like they were full of pepper, and Ektachrome E200, though the best of the three, was still not worth the one-stop advantage over the 100s.

Personally, I would like to see an ultra-sharp, ultra-fine grain E-6 with antihalation layers front and rear (that would, somehow, wash away in any E-6 chemistry, without affecting the chemicals). RMS 6 or less grain, 200 lp/mm resolution, speed preferably 100, but as low as 25, if that were needed to reach those grain and resolution specs.

Xmas · Aug 29, 2015

1L6E6VHF said:
American English expression: "different strokes for different folks". I've never liked grain, and never found a slide film of >100 ISO that impressed me. AGFA's 200 about 1995 was a big disappointment, Provia 400X was bold and sharp - but skies looked like they were full of pepper, and Ektachrome E200, though the best of the three, was still not worth the one-stop advantage over the 100s.

Personally, I would like to see an ultra-sharp, ultra-fine grain E-6 with antihalation layers front and rear (that would, somehow, wash away in any E-6 chemistry, without affecting the chemicals). RMS 6 or less grain, 200 lp/mm resolution, speed preferably 100, but as low as 25, if that were needed to reach those grain and resolution specs.

Dead Link Removed

Is what is on offer...

wblynch · Aug 29, 2015

I am not particularly demanding. If Ferrania can get us color film at least as good as their last offerings before the shutdown I will be very grateful. And happy to buy!! (provided the prices are not insane)

Xmas · Aug 29, 2015

The cine cam people are in the same boat.

pdeeh · Aug 29, 2015

Xmas said:
Had I ment to be rude you would have no trouble detecting it.
...

You have mistaken me for some one who cares if you believe me or not.

No, you were being rude, whether you realise it or not.

As for caring, you are mistaking me for someone who cares whether you care or not.

My point is not that what you say is not believable, but that you utter it in such a way as to sound as if you are speaking with an authority you simply do not possess .

You cannot possibly be in a position to say that AgfaVista200 is sold below the unit cost of manufacture, because you simply don't know whether it is or not. It may very well be being sold below cost. But the only people who could possibly say so are Fuji, and they are not telling.

One of the problems with APUG (and just about every other internet forum) is that people make these sorts of utterances (or similar ones, usually technically related rather than commercially related but not always) as if they have evidence or insider knowledge, when all that is being stated are personal beliefs and assumptions.

And thus utter bollocks can come to be repeated ad nauseam as if it were purest gold.

railwayman3 · Aug 29, 2015

pdeeh said:
You cannot possibly be in a position to say that AgfaVista200 is sold below the unit cost of manufacture, because you simply don't know whether it is or not. It may very well be being sold below cost. But the only people who could possibly say so are Fuji, and they are not telling.

Speaking as a qualified accountant, you are,IMHO, quite correct. Similar or identical products usually sell for different prices in different markets, often due to overheads and margins.

A Fuji film sold as original brand may well pass through several levels of importers, wholesalers and distributors, all with their costs and profit margins, before your little local shop orders just half-a-dozen films to put on the shelf at full price to sit there for 12 months before someone buys one.

Contrast Lupus buying 100,000 films in the AgfaPhoto brand. One order for Fuji to service, production costs are minimal ("marginal costing" -the line is set up, running, with overhead costs already amortised), probably delivered direct to Poundland's warehouse, and on to their shelves within a day or two, to await one of us buying 100 because we can't believe the value. Profit for Fuji and Poundland.

I have no insider knowledge of Fuji or Poundland, of course, but the principle is exactly the same for most manufacturers and retailers in present-day business and economics.

Nzoomed · Aug 29, 2015

wblynch said:
I am not particularly demanding. If Ferrania can get us color film at least as good as their last offerings before the shutdown I will be very grateful. And happy to buy!! (provided the prices are not insane)

Ill be happy even just if we only had the scotchchrome 100 formula!

It looks a wonderful alternative to e100g and if we see higher ISO speeds and a similar formula to e100vs and e100sw i would be extremely happy

Xmas · Aug 30, 2015

Nzoomed said:
Ill be happy even just if we only had the scotchchrome 100 formula!

It looks a wonderful alternative to e100g and if we see higher ISO speeds and a similar formula to e100vs and e100sw i would be extremely happy

I'm not sure happy is an option (paraphrasing Dilbert) we need to shoot it and drop off in e6 labs.

wblynch · Aug 30, 2015

I can develop E-6 film at home but I can't manufacture E-6 film at home.

Nzoomed · Aug 30, 2015

wblynch said:
I can develop E-6 film at home but I can't manufacture E-6 film at home.

+1

Sirius Glass · Aug 30, 2015

wblynch said:
I can develop E-6 film at home but I can't manufacture E-6 film at home.

I have a similar problem with C-41 development and printing versus manufacturing C-41 film.

Xmas · Aug 30, 2015

wblynch said:
I can develop E-6 film at home but I can't manufacture E-6 film at home.

I've done transparency at home fifty years ago from a kit, but the majority of users use a lab. If the labs go we lose them, and the manufacturer as well.
It was well inconvenient.
C41 dominated the market cause the mini labs were so simple and so quick. I could drop off ten at local lab have a coffee and blueberry and return to look at ten CDs on their mini printer's screen. Till the lab vanished.

Sirius Glass · Aug 30, 2015

Xmas said:
I've done transparency at home fifty years ago from a kit, but the majority of users use a lab. If the labs go we lose them, and the manufacturer as well.
It was well inconvenient.
C41 dominated the market cause the mini labs were so simple and so quick. I could drop off ten at local lab have a coffee and blueberry and return to look at ten CDs on their mini printer's screen. Till the lab vanished.

Slides have become less popular over the last fifty years.

AgX · Aug 30, 2015

Xmas said:
Today Fuji are dumping rebranded ISO 200 c41 at close to manufacturing or below, it is in all our high turnover cheap shops.

Xmas said:
When pound land sell at 1.00 GBP they are paying the reseller rather less...

Fuji film was even much cheaper in Germany, than yours. But film at either prices has vanished from the shelves.

Xmas · Aug 31, 2015

AgX said:
Fuji film was even much cheaper in Germany, than yours. But film at either prices has vanished from the shelves.

Try this shop for 'much'

http://shop.silverprint.co.uk/AgfaPhoto-Colour-Film/products/847/

So it is still in pound lands across the UK at 1.00 GBP.

And mug punters pay through the nose at...

May be déjà vu all over again soon.

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

PS I was ill yesterday so went home early but still saw three other people using film cameras... At carnival.

Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania

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