Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania

Photo Engineer · May 8, 2015

1L6E6VHF said:
Is this to say that the color negative film is passed under a blue light after it is coated and before it is cut and spooled?

And why was it possible to make the curves of the dyes line up properly for color reversal films, but not color negative?

(Not questioning the need for the mask by any means, just want to know how the chemistry and molecular physics differed)

The image forming couplers are actually dyes when coated. When exposed and developed, everywhere there is image, these dyes change color say from red to magenta in a negative representation of the image, and everywhere they do not change there is a positive dye image. These images align exactly because one forms the other! The orange color of the mask is there from the start, but until processed it is uniform.

No light is involved.

Color positive films cannot be masked as they must be viewed in their image colors with a clear white - no mask. Therefore, unless enough measures are taken in processing, the colors are incorrect when compared with color negative. Therefore, these curves line up, but are not correct. The designers of the film and process thus make the film higher in contrast to give bright saturated dyes.

PE

Chazzy · May 8, 2015

I can't believe the amount of space that has been wasted on the matter of the amber mask in color print negatives. Have some pity on poor Mr. Bias slogging through this garbage and kindly reserve the thread for issues directly relating to Ferrania's film production.

kb3lms · May 8, 2015

...issues directly relating to Ferrania's film production.

Speaking of which, are there any updates that can be shared? I would presume that by this time Italy has thawed out!

falotico · May 9, 2015

The incorporated masks in color negative film were the invention of Dr. Wesley Hanson at Kodak. He had an inspiration during WWII when he realized that color couplers had a color even before they were developed. If this color could mask out the desired light--typically blue--it would allow for more correct color rendition in the final print. Dr. Hanson recounts his invention during a video-taped interview which is available online:

http://www.ieeeghn.org/wiki/index.php/Wesley_T._Hanson

Nzoomed · May 9, 2015

kb3lms said:
Speaking of which, are there any updates that can be shared? I would presume that by this time Italy has thawed out!

Yes i cant wait to get an update!

cmacd123 · May 9, 2015

Nzoomed said:
Yes i cant wait to get an update!

Same here, the march update said they had a problem, (Asbestos Contamination) and we would hear more in 30 days....

Photo Engineer · May 9, 2015

CORRECTION: They had an unwanted color AFTER development.

PE

Nzoomed · May 10, 2015

cmacd123 said:
Same here, the march update said they had a problem, (Asbestos Contamination) and we would hear more in 30 days....

Dave said there was supposed to be another update soon, so i expect it cant be far away!
I cant wait to shoot my first roll!

Xmas · May 10, 2015

Photo Engineer said:
CORRECTION: They had an unwanted color AFTER development.

PE

You seem to be on an ignore list?

wblynch · May 10, 2015

So when digital photos or positive scans of color negative film (with the mask removed) are sent to the machine for printing on color paper is the "mask" reintroduced in the printer? That is hard for me to believe.

Xmas · May 10, 2015

Cine projection film is 'contact' printed from masked ECN.

Photo Engineer · May 10, 2015

wblynch said:
So when digital photos or positive scans of color negative film (with the mask removed) are sent to the machine for printing on color paper is the "mask" reintroduced in the printer? That is hard for me to believe.

Actually, the mask makes a "perfect" positive image which is slightly overcorrected so that when printed back onto a negative film the corrected + overcorrected image both are properly masked by the internegative film. There are sometimes 13 or more "generations" of images, positive and negative, before the final distribution print is sent out from Hollywood.

And yes, it does work due to the neg-pos system. It is impossible in a pos-pos system due to the nature of the process. It is difficult to introduce any form of contrast or color correction. Thus, positive systems are built to "astound" you in the first generation and do not print well unless you use elaborate masking.

PE

Sal Santamaura · May 10, 2015

Photo Engineer said:
...the final distribution print is sent out from Hollywood...

In case anyone doesn't know, this is now for the most part an historical reference.

AgX · May 10, 2015

We are a bunch of historical people anyway...

Photo Engineer · May 10, 2015

I think that is "hysterical people"! Hysterical over the potential loss of some products and the revival of others.

PE

cmacd123 · May 10, 2015

The mask corects the colours as scanned or as printed conventionally.

for Motion Picture work there is a intermediate film KODAK VISION Color Intermediate Film / 5242, 7242 and KODAK VISION Color Intermediate Film / 2242, 3242 / ESTAR Base which has a mask, (although it is described as being more red than orange) and can be used to make positives and negatives used between the camera negative and the final print (for those happy days when a print is made) The positive will look funny with the mask, but the next copy step will work better if it is there. Search for the 5242 data sheet for details. the 4 type numbers refer to 35mm and 16mm in both acetate and Polyester.

wblynch · May 10, 2015

Well this is Ferrania's thread. Solaris negative film had a mask so I'm sure the new one will as well.

Xmas · May 10, 2015

And one of the sponsors is the cine film people who don't have a direct positive any more?

TheToadMen · May 11, 2015

wblynch said:
Well this is Ferrania's thread.

Are you sure?

toyotadesigner · May 13, 2015

If someone should be interested to read more about Film Ferrania:

http://www.wittner-kinotechnik.de/info/filmferrania/english.php

(English and German)

FILM Ferrania · May 15, 2015

Originally Posted by wblynch (there was a url link here which no longer exists)
Well this is Ferrania's thread.

TheToadMen said:
Are you sure?

I still watch the thread and I think I mentioned before that I'd love to see it get to 100 pages. So many different sub-threads have risen and fallen...

But I feel no ownership of the thread. It's all you guys!

pbromaghin · May 15, 2015

Funny, but I found out about the latest announcement in apug before I got the email update from Ferrania.

wblynch · May 15, 2015

It's all about the steam

FILM Ferrania · May 15, 2015

wblynch said:
It's all about the steam

One wouldn't normally think that WATER, whether in steam form or chilled form, might prove to be such a problem.

I'm just glad we're not in California right now...

ME Super · May 15, 2015

No doubt. The midwestern US has had a rather wet spring this year, but occasionally we get hit with drought (2012 comes to mind - I think it rained twice, for about 20 minutes each time, between May and August). We think those are bad, I'm just glad it's not as bad as California!

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