Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

railwayman3 · Apr 12, 2017

mshchem said:
I saw a machine on Ebay not long ago. A electric driven high speed contact printer from the 20's or 30's ? A company in my hometown Kilborn Photo made Kruxo brand photo postcard paper. In the US 3 1/4 x 5 1/2 inch negative. RPPC are a thing of beauty. Nothing beats a quality contact print.
Best Mike

Yes, I have a small collection of local RPPC's, and the best are as good as hand-made prints. Ilford used to provide sample books containing real photos printed on the various surfaces and types of paper, and I'm sure that other makers did the same.....the best advert for any product is the opportunity to actually see and handle it, so maybe Ferrania should note and start to put out some amazing prints made from P30 negs.....Redfox has come up with an ideal sample above, and I myself have a few dealer's sample prints, about 20x16, originally supplied by Agfa. Just an eye-catching print on the dealer's wall, with a neat "Agfacolor" logo in the corner......

klownshed · Apr 13, 2017

It's 2017. Online marketing of P30 is the only sensible option.

Given all the variables involved, using the logic of some of the posts above, the only way to truly judge P30 is to buy a roll and print it yourself with your own enlarger and choice of paper.

If you have even a passing interest in the film it's no big deal to do this. If you're not willing to try a single roll, I can't see how any number of expensive postcards personally sent by Ferrania would change this.

i buy a lot of ilford film at the moment and they've never sent me a postcard. :-(

railwayman3 · Apr 13, 2017

klownshed said:
It's 2017. Online marketing of P30 is the only sensible option.

Given all the variables involved, using the logic of some of the posts above, the only way to truly judge P30 is to buy a roll and print it yourself with your own enlarger and choice of paper.

If you have even a passing interest in the film it's no big deal to do this. If you're not willing to try a single roll, I can't see how any number of expensive postcards personally sent by Ferrania would change this.

i buy a lot of ilford film at the moment and they've never sent me a postcard. :-(

I agree with your point, but if people don't know of P30 and see nothing to tempt them to try it, they won't buy it. Most of the general public know of Fuji and
Kodak brand names for many products, Ilford may be less well known generally, but will, at least, be familiar to most people with any interest in photography; all have built up a reputation over many years of sales, publicity and advertising. With respect, who in the general public, outside Italy, would recognise "Ferrania"....I mentioned the name to a friend a few days ago, his reply was "isn't that the Italian railways"?
I don't know an answer, but they will need more then just casual users trying out the odd film. I use a lot of Ilford film for my B&W, as much as I need to fully service my very active photographic hobby. But even my contribution to Ilford is tiny in their scheme of things....they must have many 1,000's of little guys like me buying regularly to be continuing successfully.

P.S. I had many free samples, brochures, prints and charts from Ilford back in Simon's days of Ilford factory visits. (And a nice free lunch. ).

RattyMouse · Apr 13, 2017

P30 was a limited run of film and sold out quickly. Advertising this film therefore would be a useless exercise.

railwayman3 · Apr 13, 2017

RattyMouse said:
P30 was a limited run of film and sold out quickly. Advertising this film therefore would be a useless exercise.

So that was it then, one film, limited and sold out ? Are you suggesting that Ferrania isn't intending to do anything more, so won't need to advertise or promote the brand ?

Nzoomed · Apr 13, 2017

Meanwhile all the P30 has been shipped out and the team are secretly preparing a colour batch

fdonadio · Apr 13, 2017

Nzoomed said:
Meanwhile all the P30 has been shipped out and the team are secretly preparing a colour batch

It's about time they post an update or a video... this suspense is killing me!

RattyMouse · Apr 13, 2017

railwayman3 said:
So that was it then, one film, limited and sold out ? Are you suggesting that Ferrania isn't intending to do anything more, so won't need to advertise or promote the brand ?

When they have a product available to the public, I'm sure they will promote it. First things first.

FILM Ferrania · Apr 13, 2017

RattyMouse said:
P30 was a limited run of film and sold out quickly. Advertising this film therefore would be a useless exercise.

In fact, we plan to make P30 indefinitely and, eventually, in all formats. ALPHA is the only thing that is limited and we're simply awaiting a few more tests - and some data from "the wild" - before we lift that designation.

Advertising costs money - and money, we do not have. Yes, as railwayman3 pointed out, printing 6000 postcards is super cheap. SENDING those to backers all over the world is anything but cheap - nor are we in a position to take one team member and put them on postcard duty for the two or three days it would take to properly address and stamp these hypothetical tokens of our affection...

As RattyMouse says (but in a different context) - there is no point in advertising when we can't even make enough film to meet standing demand. At this particular moment in time, putting a single cent into anything that brings MORE customers to the table would be suicidal.

We closed the shop to give the factory time to catch up because we sold about 3x more in five days than we expected to sell in 3 weeks. And that with a half-crippled shop and high shipping costs outside the EU. (side note - I've actually been called a "disgrace" for the fact that we had to cover our butts with the shipping expenses).

In fact, we've been totally heads-down and all-hands-on-deck to get the coater optimized and running full-speed, prepping emulsion, finalizing the last details of warehousing and international shipping, visiting our finishing partner to find ways for them to speed up without sacrificing quality, talking to a NEW partner about putting our own 35mm finishing line into service many months earlier than planned AND hiring two new people to help Ivano with color production. Plus fixing the shop, answering emails and comments and trying to get accurate and reliable test data from several different labs.

Looking at the incoming messaging, as I do, it also seems that we are in a situation where many people are counting our progress in Internet Time even though absolutely nothing we do happens on Internet Time. It happens on We're a Manufacturer of Physical Goods in the Real World Time and relative to Internet Time, it appears we're standing still when in fact we're racing forward at a speed that would be inconceivable to anyone who has ever made a roll of film from scratch. (That could be a tad hyperbolic, but JUST a tad...)

Like I said before, we are 100% focused on doing what we must do to get to next month and the month after that and the month after that so that everyone has something to complain about a year from now, five years from now, etc.

Progress!!

Prof_Pixel · Apr 13, 2017

Dave,

Thanks for the update!

MattKing · Apr 13, 2017

FILM Ferrania said:
We're a Manufacturer of Physical Goods in the Real World Time and relative to Internet Time, it appears we're standing still when in fact we're racing forward at a speed that would be inconceivable to anyone who has ever made a roll of film from scratch.

Thanks for the update.
The part quoted sounds like an idea for Dr. Who!

ericdan · Apr 13, 2017

sounds good Dave. Thanks for the update.
Hopefully we'll be able to shoot some Ferrania color slides this summer.

j.c.denton · Apr 14, 2017

railwayman3 said:
Ilford used to provide sample books containing real photos printed on the various surfaces and types of paper,

I have one of these - it was the best advertising Ilford could do, extremely convincing. Chances are high I wouldn't have bought ART 300 without seeing and feeling it several times when looking into this sample book.

Europan · Apr 14, 2017

All the manufacturers had them, Du Pont, Agfa, Eastman Kodak, . . .

If I can suggest something, Dave: As soon as Film Ferrania begins to make -chrome film, see that Double Eight is the first format to serve. There are thousands of cameras sitting around and I think they will rather likely be pulled out again. Processing of Double-Eight stock goes as 16. The splitting makes it the still cheapest format of all. Parallel to 2 × 8mm Double-Super 8 will also be interesting. All Super-8 film begins as Double-Super 8, so to ride the wave together with Eastman Kodak that appears to be a must. Only then comes 16mm and 9.5 (if a perforator is at hand), and 35mm last.

If Ferrania abhors the materials battle around Double Eight, you know, spools, paper or rubber bands, tins, boxes, folders—400-ft. darkroom loads are a viable option. 100-ft. portions are absorbed by the still numerous possessors of corresponding cameras. As 35mm stock Ferrania-chrome (?) should be available in 100-ft. lengths, if not longer, perforated ISO 491-N. Let me put it that way: open the taps, flood the market, push the film on the shelves and sales counters of photo dealers. Print oversize dummy boxes, make them happen in shop windows! Do all the tricks Kodak has forgotten.

Brady Eklund · Apr 14, 2017

Thanks for the update! A lot of people who are used to dealing with large established companies were upset at the cost of shipping, and really don't understand that those companies all get heavily discounted rates based on high long-term shipping volumes. Throwing in international shipping is something I don't even want to think about. Getting all of that sorted out is a PITA for any small company, and takes time and volume. I'm sure your prices were just covering your costs, if that. I thought the American rates were very reasonable. I think a lot of the negativity is a result of an attitude I see a lot in artistic communities, particularly artistic communities where extreme attention to detail and highly developed skills are involved (classical musicians, computer programmers, etc...). A highly self-critical perspective on one's own work is necessary to get to a high level of ability, and many of these people turn that negativity on everything else around them. Couple this with a general ignorance of the particular challenges others face and you've got a recipe for some real assholery. That these people are very skillful and deserving of respect for their abilities makes it all the more discouraging to deal with their negativity.

Don't let the haters get you down, there are a lot of people out here who are really excited about your work and will support you even more because you don't hide your struggles behind a wall of PR.

afriman · Apr 15, 2017

FILM Ferrania said:
Advertising costs money - and money, we do not have. Yes, as railwayman3 pointed out, printing 6000 postcards is super cheap. SENDING those to backers all over the world is anything but cheap - nor are we in a position to take one team member and put them on postcard duty for the two or three days it would take to properly address and stamp these hypothetical tokens of our affection...Progress!!

Advertising costs money, yes. And advertising is essential if you ever want to get beyond this alpha phase. Would it add anything to your shipping costs to include a few of those supercheap postcards with each of the orders you will hopefully be sending out soon? And eventually, when production is high enough to start shipping to retailers, to include a small stack with every order, so they can be handed out, displayed and put on shop counters? You can hardly get cheaper, more cost-effective, and specifically targeted advertising than that. Cynically calling such easily attainable and potentially very effective means of creating brand awareness "hypothetical tokens of our affection" is rather short-sighted.

klownshed · Apr 15, 2017

Redfox61 said:
Advertising costs money, yes. And advertising is essential if you ever want to get beyond this alpha phase. Would it add anything to your shipping costs to include a few of those supercheap postcards with each of the orders you will hopefully be sending out soon? And eventually, when production is high enough to start shipping to retailers, to include a small stack with every order, so they can be handed out, displayed and put on shop counters? You can hardly get cheaper, more cost-effective, and specifically targeted advertising than that. Cynically calling such easily attainable and potentially very effective means of creating brand awareness "hypothetical tokens of our affection" is rather short-sighted.

That may have made sense years ago, but it doesn't in 2017. Even if Ferrania printed postcards, What retailers are there left to display them?

Film is now mainly purchased online. If you have a retailer near you count yourself lucky, most specialsit camera shops have gone let alone ones selling film.

A small company with a small marketing budget needs to spend that money wisely. And spending it on paper advertising is not an efficient use of money. It never has been for all but the companies with the biggest budgets that can afford to print millions of leaflets knowing most will not result in a sale.

Even if Ferrania did make a million postcards. To whom would they send them? There really are precious few retail places left to buy film. Even those that still do sell film often hide it, shelf space is valuable and film just doesn't warrant that space.

People are complaining already that P30 is too pricey. One great way to drive the price up even further is to send a postcard with each order.

It might sound like a nice idea, but it's one with no foundation in reality.

railwayman3 · Apr 15, 2017

Brady Eklund said:
I think a lot of the negativity is a result of an attitude I see a lot in artistic communities, particularly artistic communities where extreme attention to detail and highly developed skills are involved (classical musicians, computer programmers, etc...). A highly self-critical perspective on one's own work is necessary to get to a high level of ability, and many of these people turn that negativity on everything else around them. Couple this with a general ignorance of the particular challenges others face and you've got a recipe for some real assholery. That these people are very skillful and deserving of respect for their abilities makes it all the more discouraging to deal with their negativity.
.

Neat bit of armchair psychology there.
My own profession took six years training, and our work has to be 101% correct, otherwise we would be answering to our own regulatory bodies. I'll agree that this does make me self-critical, and maybe this training makes me subconsciously try to set high standards outside my work. I don't believe this makes me an asshole ?
OTOH, my clients come to me and my colleagues because they need assistance in specialist matters, and do not fully understand or cannot deal with these matters themselves. I don't call them "ignorant", or have any "negativity" (whatever that means?) towards them, many are well educated in other fields and many are highly successful business or professional people themselves.

Prest_400 · Apr 15, 2017

The PR itself is advertising. Dave answering questions online and having sites talk about Ferrania is advertising. Photographers commenting about it, is advertising.

Marketing channels have changed and traditional advertising might not do much, if at all, better than the current efforts. Look up on virals!

railwayman3 · Apr 15, 2017

klownshed said:
That may have made sense years ago, but it doesn't in 2017. Even if Ferrania printed postcards, What retailers are there left to display them?

Film is now mainly purchased online. If you have a retailer near you count yourself lucky, most specialsit camera shops have gone let alone ones selling film.

A small company with a small marketing budget needs to spend that money wisely. And spending it on paper advertising is not an efficient use of money. It never has been for all but the companies with the biggest budgets that can afford to print millions of leaflets knowing most will not result in a sale.

Even if Ferrania did make a million postcards. To whom would they send them? There really are precious few retail places left to buy film. Even those that still do sell film often hide it, shelf space is valuable and film just doesn't warrant that space.

People are complaining already that P30 is too pricey. One great way to drive the price up even further is to send a postcard with each order.

It might sound like a nice idea, but it's one with no foundation in reality.

And all this ^^^^ just because someone suggested a small idea to try to help Ferrania ?

klownshed · Apr 15, 2017

railwayman3 said:
And all this ^^^^ just because someone suggested a small idea to try to help Ferrania ?

All of what?

One person thinks it will help, another thinks it's not practical. So what? We are all grown up aren't we? It's OK to disagree.

If Ferrania think your 'little idea' is great and will help them, then that's what they'll do. And if they do and it works, that will be great too.

No need to take offence.

Diapositivo · Apr 15, 2017

My little idea to help Ferrania, and it't OK to disagree:

The "postcards" might be distributed with some photographic magazines, they still exist, I'm thinking specifically to "Classic Camera Black & White" by Editrice Progresso, 4 numbers per year.
Or maybe a numbero of Progresso Fotografico (same publisher, Progresso Fotografico publishes "monographic numbers") dedicated to B&W printing.

The editor is, maybe, willing and able to include a free postcard and Ferrania would save the shipping cost.

afriman · Apr 15, 2017

I've been involved with online as well as traditional printed-media advertising. It is true that online advertising now dominates, but that doesn't mean physical media has no place. One just has to be a bit smarter in choosing distribution channels. The idea of prints was raised specifically because a good analog print is the most reliable medium to give a true impression of a film's capabilities. It is a particularly appropriate form of advertising as it represents the very nature of the product - analog vs digital image-making.

I live in a country where there probably is no more than a handful of brick-and-mortar shops where you can buy film. I do all my film purchases online. Futhermore, I live in a small town which would make the outlook for film sales seem even more bleak. But it's a university town with many young people who are always keen to try out something new. These youngsters tend to hang out in coffee shops where advertisements are placed on notice boards, on the counter and on tables. People sitting down for coffee will look at stuff like that - especially if it's an eye-catching photograph. If there are copies for the taking, they have a good chance of finding their way into pockets.

As in other places throughout the world, there is definitely a resurgence of interest in film photography over here. At the moment I am helping a young guy who grew up with digital to start doing his own film processing. Of course, the fact that photography is taught at the university in departments of fine art as well as journalism and media studies also helps, as does the existence of a vibrant photographic society.

You may argue that I'm in a unique environment, but I believe there's a lot of fertile ground out there. Finding it may just require a bit of thinking outside the box. For instance, if Film Ferrania builds strong relationships with online dealers, why not encourage them to put a photograph inside every parcel that goes out to customers?

bvy · Apr 15, 2017

Maybe the postcards could come from practitioners of the film at their own expense, similar to how we do our postcard/print exchanges here. Just thinking out loud.

fdonadio · Apr 15, 2017

Diapositivo said:
The editor is, maybe, willing and able to include a free postcard and Ferrania would save the shipping cost.

I am not familiar with these publications. Your proposition may work with them, but here, in Brazil, magazines treat this kind of "marketing action" as a special kind of advertisement, which costs more than regular ad placement.

Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

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