Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

twelvetone12 · Mar 13, 2017

Berri said:
I think he means that we italians are used to broken promises, people that say "it's only two days" should be awere of the fact that in italian time this could mean 20 years.

Well I'm Italian too and before moving abroad I worked as a programmer in Italy for almost a decade. Deadlines and promises were pretty much darn honored were I worked, I would have been in very hot water for making a delivery slip, even for a couple days. It always saddens me when Italian companies are thought of being sloppy a priori, having worked with many Italian professionals and having experienced their excellent professionalism first-hand (my company traded in 50 countries and our costumers choose our products over inexpensive Chinese ones because we were much more reliable!).
Slips do happen - it is inevitable - but you count them in when making plans, and you leave time for unexpected events to happen. And if still slips do happen, I agree with railwayman3, you communicate honestly with your supporters and costumers. You just don't drop and email the day your delivery is due and say "guess what? it will be late!".
It is not the two days - it is having over-promised and then stepped back. Since the most common complaint is that - non delivering - you just did it again, to confirm the complaints! And you also set it up in a manner that it seems even more dramatic than it really is. A seemingly small slip like this can jeopardize trust in what the whole team is doing. Why should we expect anything Wednesday and not another explanation on why you can't provide what you promise?

EDIT: spelling

afriman · Mar 13, 2017

In this instance, saying they aim to start production by the end of March would have been more sensible. Then, if around the twentieth they announced that they were actually ready, it would have looked very good for them, having beaten the deadline. And even if there were a few more delays up to a few days into April, the phrasing "we aim to" would have made it much more acceptable. As others have said, over-promising is a fatal mistake, and the countdown clock made matters even worse.

Agulliver · Mar 13, 2017

The sense of entitlement from many posters to this thread is deeply upsetting.

The people at Film Ferrania have achieved something nigh on impossible. Yes they have stumbled along the way. Yes it's mildly inconvenient that there have been delays. Yes, it is a bit of a disappointment that the opening of the shop has been delayed two days.

But people.....have a sense of perspective. Nobody's died. Nobody's life is at risk because of a delay in the production of a freakin' photo film. I'd far rather they took those stumbles, made the mistakes and ended up getting things right a couple of years late than put out something sub-standard or give up because they couldn't achieve the timeline.

And through all those delays, unforeseen problems, mis-steps and victories....they've kept us informed and put themselves out here in the firing line.

The actual opening of the web shop is now at an inconvenient time for me...so there's a chance I may miss out...but do I complain? No...because the webshop isn't here just for me. If I manage to order some P30 will I complain if it takes three weeks to reach Bedfordshire from Ferrania? No, because I know they are just starting up whatever distribution they are using. It's not like I will lose a limb if I can't get some P30 before the weekend.

But what do we get? "When's it coming out in XYZ unusual format?" "How much?" "When is the colour reversal coming out in 66x32.323 sheet format? I'll scream if it isn't here by Wednesday".
Pretty much anyway. Almost enough to make me give up on APUG.

Agulliver · Mar 13, 2017

Redfox61 said:
In this instance, saying they aim to start production by the end of March would have been more sensible. Then, if around the twentieth they announced that they were actually ready, it would have looked very good for them

Everybody has 20/20 hindsight. I am sure they really thought they'd make the latest deadline. But we're not talking about a tried and tested process here. They are producing a brand new film (something NOBODY else in the world is doing) using reclaimed machinery with a crew of just a few people. It's far from a turn-key operation and there are many unknown quantities.

I doff my metaphorical hat to them.

DaveTheWalker · Mar 13, 2017

Agulliver said:
Everybody has 20/20 hindsight. I am sure they really thought they'd make the latest deadline. But we're not talking about a tried and tested process here. They are producing a brand new film (something NOBODY else in the world is doing) using reclaimed machinery with a crew of just a few people. It's far from a turn-key operation and there are many unknown quantities.

I doff my metaphorical hat to them.

I'm absolutely with Agulliver on this one. I've been disappointed to see the negativity on this thread today. Apart from anything else, this is an ALPHA release, not a full commercial product. ALPHA releases are designed exactly to iron out all these little bugs in the system that might occur when launching a new product, so that the main event goes smoothly. Let's cut the guys and girls (after all, there are only 6 of them!) a little slack and just wait patiently until they are ready to release film our way. What Ferrania have done so far is nothing short of incredible. If even film's fans can't fly the flag for Ferrania, then what hope do we have of persuading more people to support them?

twelvetone12 · Mar 13, 2017

You completely miss the point. I don't see any "entitlement" here, just plain disappointment. In their mail they do not say that they have production delays but the webshop is delayed. It is very different.
The disappointment is not because their process is is novel or difficult or whatever, it is because the last small piece, the shop, is missing. Which is not a problem itself (remember? I wrote "slips in schedule happen") but because it was over promised, and, to the pleasure of all the naysayers, slipped exactly as was predicted.
I personally am not upset by the two days delay or whatever delay there could be more, I'm upset from all the noise, the show, the counter, and then backing off as if nothing happened. "Ops we need more time". I don't feel this is how you conduct a serious business and how you treat who supports you.
Being honest would have been saying "we want to sell p30, we are setting the shop, which is difficult, we expect it online during springtime". I feel a bit stupid for all the times I supported the project.
But hey, maybe I'm just entitled.

Agulliver · Mar 13, 2017

The past delays have mostly been due to stumbles in the process, finding unexpected obstacles etc.

I believe there is a little more than just the web shop now....but....have you experienced setting up a web shop, integrating it into an existing website and beginning a web ordering business from scratch? It's really not simple and even if one buys in a ready made web shop solution it must be tailored to the vendor, and usually the existing site must be likewise tailored to the web shop software...which can take days or even weeks depending on whether one has a full time webmaster or if it's someone who is also working in the organisation....or a hired person who might be looking after several other websites.

At every step of this journey, the people at Ferrania have explained what's going on. It was very clear that even if they used their old chemistry to make up a batch of reward film for 2016 that the actual production wouldn't be until well into 2017...then the asbestos, power lines, construction and myriad other issues which were not really foreseeable.

In hindsight they could have built pessimism into their communications....but part of their game has always been to come across as enthused, excited to be bringing a new film product into the market. Many other people - likely 99% of us -would have given up and got a reliable, steady and secure job by now instead of sticking around the LRF...

Prest_400 · Mar 13, 2017

It's amusing how the shop delays have made the discussion of making film to be overseen.

The update about scaling from a 30L to a 80L emulsion vat (?) is very very interesting, as well as the numbers given. 3000 rolls per batch-week currently. If the film is going half the hot-pancake way that P30 is now, they are going to be very busy. Anyhow, I suppose that in a few months demand will stabilize and it's a peak because of announcement.
The flexibility, can be very interesting for niche products like a High Speed E6 or something else. I'm looking forward to the reversal film coming.

OT but I was reading (Stearman press sourced, an advertiser here) that Shanghai film was made again and they were in process of getting 120 into market but the interesting part was a mention of 220. I don't know how Ferrania will stand in the Midterm for 220 batches because of the da*ned backing paper... Perhaps they can check with those Czech with oak barrels that stored Old Ferrania.

twelvetone12 · Mar 13, 2017

Sorry I do not want to seems angry or anything, and Pres_400 is right the film making part is much more interesting... But I do have first hand experience on the situation, since I develop and maintain (and deploy) complex web applications as my main job, and I did write some e-commerce platforms in the past. I know very well the struggle and it is by no means easy, but I also know how much of a party killer is to phone a client the day of deployment and saying that the product is delayed. And yes I had to pick up that phone a couple times.
I really don't want anything from Ferrania - I don't have problems waiting for my reward whatever it will take. But as a supporter of the project I sincerely feel let dow by this. No one asked to set a date - I surely did not - but not respecting it at the latest moment transmits to me a sensation of sloppiness I do not want to have. That's it, this is my last take on this subject, I sincerely hope my bad sensation will be proven wrong. I too prefer the technical discussions.

Wallendo · Mar 13, 2017

At heart, Film Ferrania is a group of tech guys who really want to make film. They know how to make film, not e-commerce sites. Yes, they are far behind their initial goals, but when you fall behind money issues can arise.
If they were better capitalized, they would likely have their website in many languages and have multiple PR people in different areas, a full-time CEO and financial officer.
What I care about is that they get it right when making film. The only issue that really matters to me is: Can Ferrania produced film with good quality control and availability? Website glitches are not a big issue, and, to be honest, they are so far behind that a few more days wait is not an issue for me.

fdonadio · Mar 13, 2017

Alessandro Serrao said:
Valeu!

It seems good sense of humor is another characteristic shared by Brazilians and Italians.

Truzi · Mar 13, 2017

This is the first Kickstarter I participated in, but I did look into these things in general before contributing. It is not uncommon for projects to be delayed, especially as people deal with aspects they are not familiar with. I went into this expecting delays as they resurrected the factory, so I am not worried about it.

Once things get rolling I am sure there will be fewer problems.

RattyMouse · Mar 13, 2017

twelvetone12 said:
Which perspective? Did anyone force them to have a 12-day countdown? For two days? There was not a way to buffer two days to bring up a web shop so you would not blow what you promised, for your first product? No one forced them to over promise. Is the operation going to be managed all this way? Wow this is surely a good way to build credibility! And not because they could not make film, because they could not bring up the shop to sell it. Is sounds even worse.

Cry me a river.

RattyMouse · Mar 13, 2017

Berri said:
........and I don't know a thing of business management.

At that point, I stopped listening, or caring what you have to say..

RattyMouse · Mar 13, 2017

Berri said:
Also it's not going to be easy to ship to every corner of the world from one single location. It's only ten of them, how they gonna manage to do it? I still believe that it would have been easier to give film in large quantities to some reliable dealers in Europe and USA so that people could order from different places. I'm afraid that they will be in the bad situation of not being able to meet demand and postpone over and over and over

Never heard of DHL?

Christ, the whining here is amazing.

RattyMouse · Mar 13, 2017

Wallendo said:
At heart, Film Ferrania is a group of tech guys who really want to make film. They know how to make film, not e-commerce sites. Yes, they are far behind their initial goals, but when you fall behind money issues can arise.
If they were better capitalized, they would likely have their website in many languages and have multiple PR people in different areas, a full-time CEO and financial officer.
What I care about is that they get it right when making film. The only issue that really matters to me is: Can Ferrania produced film with good quality control and availability? Website glitches are not a big issue, and, to be honest, they are so far behind that a few more days wait is not an issue for me.

Well said.

afriman · Mar 13, 2017

Agulliver said:
The sense of entitlement from many posters to this thread is deeply upsetting.

Agulliver said:
Everybody has 20/20 hindsight.

It's neither a question of entitlement nor of hindsight. The disappointment stems from the lack of professionalism displayed in the repeated false expectations and unfulfilled promises. By now they should have learned from experience that it's much better to be conservative in one's predictions than creating expectations and then failing to deliver. Others have pointed out that it's common practice to make ample allowance for unforeseen delays in one's projections. This is plain common sense, you don't have to be a marketing or sales guru to realize that.

Wallendo said:
At heart, Film Ferrania is a group of tech guys who really want to make film. They know how to make film, not e-commerce sites

I believe we are all in awe of what those guys have accomplished and highly appreciative of what they are doing to help keep film alive. But what they are embarking on, is also a business enterprise, and in order to inspire and maintain confidence, they need to act professionally. To some, it may seem like those of us who keep harping on this, are making too much noise about something fairly trivial. But it was the Film Ferrania guys who initially created the noise with all the hype about today being the launch date and the dramatics of the countdown clock. It's the kind of thing that can cause even a minor glitch to make a team of highly qualified people appear inept. We all share their excitement, but they will succeed much better in maintaining our confidence by being a bit more realistic (and thus more conservative) in the expectations they create.

bvy · Mar 13, 2017

It's a TWO DAY delay. I'm just not feeling it.

MattKing · Mar 13, 2017

I wonder what sort of APUG response there would be if it was Kodak who missed a couple of self-imposed deadlines?
If I count correctly, there are just 8 people on two continents involved in this.
Express disappointment, but don't cry "treachery".

RattyMouse · Mar 13, 2017

Redfox61 said:
It's neither a question of entitlement nor of hindsight. The disappointment stems from the lack of professionalism displayed in the repeated false expectations and unfulfilled promises. By now they should have learned from experience that it's much better to be conservative in one's predictions than creating expectations and then failing to deliver. Others have pointed out that it's common practice to make ample allowance for unforeseen delays in one's projections. This is plain common sense, you don't have to be a marketing or sales guru to realize that.

I believe we are all in awe of what those guys have accomplished and highly appreciative of what they are doing to help keep film alive. But what they are embarking on, is also a business enterprise, and in order to inspire and maintain confidence, they need to act professionally. To some, it may seem like those of us who keep harping on this, are making too much noise about something fairly trivial. But it was the Film Ferrania guys who initially created the noise with all the hype about today being the launch date and the dramatics of the countdown clock. It's the kind of thing that can cause even a minor glitch to make a team of highly qualified people appear inept. We all share their excitement, but they will succeed much better in maintaining our confidence by being a bit more realistic (and thus more conservative) in the expectations they create.

What part of Alpha product do you not understand?

RattyMouse · Mar 13, 2017

MattKing said:
I wonder what sort of APUG response there would be if it was Kodak who missed a couple of self-imposed deadlines?
If I count correctly, there are just 8 people on two continents involved in this.
Express disappointment, but don't cry "treachery".

I wouldnt care in the slightest because the cost to me is nothing. My gripes with Kodak have been that they have cost me dearly. I shot an entire Washington DC vacation on Kodak film and 100% of the images are ruined due to Kodak's poor quality.

The same occurred during my final shoot in China before I moved back home to the US. Again, Kodak's poor quality cost me an irreplaceable moment.

The two situations between Kodak and Ferrania are not even slightly similar.

railwayman3 · Mar 13, 2017

Redfox61 - your last post above is one of the most sensible and fairest summaries, so far, of what seems to be going amiss with Ferrania and how it's starting to look to supporters and kickstarter "investors".

FILM Ferrania · Mar 13, 2017

Nzoomed said:
Thats awesome that the old mask was found to expose the "Ferrania" to the sprocket edge!

One question for Dave,

Do you know if any of the other masks are available for the more classic ferrania logo similar to the image below?
Would be great to see this back on the colour films
It appears Ferrania technologies used it and messed around with it, firstly changing only the first letter "F" and the two "r"'s, and then afterwards they changed the whole word in the final production runs.
See photo below.
There are shots ive seen on google with the whole logo, but they are not common, as i think they changed it early on.

This is of course the post-1999 version of the Ferrania logo, which nodded to the original one but added those strange blocks to the "f".

Unfortunately, Marco has not been able to lay hands on a complete set of the "ferrania script" signature masks for the perforator (from either era), so these will need to be commissioned by an artisan who can hand-cut replacements.

This task is tabled for the moment, but we certainly love the original script logo and hope to reintroduce it for our color products.

railwayman3 · Mar 13, 2017

Wallendo said:
At heart, Film Ferrania is a group of tech guys who really want to make film. They know how to make film, not e-commerce sites. Yes, they are far behind their initial goals, but when you fall behind money issues can arise.
If they were better capitalized, they would likely have their website in many languages and have multiple PR people in different areas, a full-time CEO and financial officer.
What I care about is that they get it right when making film. The only issue that really matters to me is: Can Ferrania produced film with good quality control and availability? Website glitches are not a big issue, and, to be honest, they are so far behind that a few more days wait is not an issue for me.

Indeed, these tech guys are amazing and deserve success. But is the project now going to fail at the last hurdle of actually selling the product by convincing customers that this is a consistently reliable film, with good quality control and efficient supplies and support ? If customers can't see that Ferrania products are better than, or sufficiently different from, Kodak, Fuji or Ilford, they may just remain a curiosity or novelty for us analog geeks to experiment with. And that may not generate the volume of sales to meet ongoing cost of developing the project further ?

FILM Ferrania · Mar 13, 2017

Berri said:
delayed 2 days. I hate to be th

I hate to be the guy who quotes himself but there you go, a 2 days delay has been announced. This is exactly what I'm saying about creating an hype and only producing credibility lost. Now, will they stick to the new date?

Yes, yes - you may all proceed with the "I told you so's..."

Having been glued to my office chair 16 hours per day for the past 33 days in a row, with no weekends or significant breaks, I can only say that my skin has become quite thick regarding such things.

You may call this a loss of credibility, but if the entirety of our communication (warts and all, as I've said before) - and the monumental problems we have overcome - does not earn us some level of credibility, then, well... OK.

No one is forced to buy our products, after all...

Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

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