Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

Photo Engineer · Oct 19, 2016

Reversal products are notorious at EK for being the hardest to coat and having the highest defect rate. Think about this.

From my information, Cibachrome was the same.

PE

Poisson Du Jour · Oct 20, 2016

Photo Engineer said:
From my information, Cibachrome was the same.

You bet it was!!

Nzoomed · Oct 20, 2016

Photo Engineer said:
Reversal products are notorious at EK for being the hardest to coat and having the highest defect rate. Think about this.

From my information, Cibachrome was the same.

PE

Im pretty sure that Film Ferrania have said they have no current plans to coat paper, and understandingly so.
I dont see them doing paper unless it became financially viable, and no other major manufacturer produced any.

I get all my film scans printed on Fuji Crystal archive, (RA4) i believe this is the closest thing to cibachrome as far as dye stability goes...

Chris Livsey · Oct 20, 2016

Photo Engineer said:
Reversal products are notorious at EK for being the hardest to coat and having the highest defect rate.
PE

Why would that be so? More layers, but once running why more defects?
(I know buy the new Edition of the book ?

Meyer Trioplan · Oct 20, 2016

flavio81 said:
Lomography color negative 400, 800, 200, and 100; if it says "made in Italy"

BAC1967 said:
These were shot on 3M/Ferrania re-branded as York film, expired May 2007. I believe York is a photo store in the US.

(apparently, only two quotes are allowed per entry, but...) Thanks to all for the input on some of the brands that are Ferrania film. I've picked up about a dozen rolls of 200 speed to do a little bit of testing.

flavio81 · Oct 20, 2016

Meyer Trioplan said:
(apparently, only two quotes are allowed per entry, but...) Thanks to all for the input on some of the brands that are Ferrania film. I've picked up about a dozen rolls of 200 speed to do a little bit of testing.

Hi Meyer-Optik Trioplan,

Before testing, consider that Lomo film might not have been packaged from fresh stock, even if the expiration date looks recent. Such film will have speed loss and non-linear color shifts (i.e. red layer curve shifts in a different amount than the other layers). The samples i used were OK in color reproduction but they seemed to have loss a bit of speed.

flavio81 · Oct 20, 2016

Poisson Du Jour said:
Sounds like you're dabbling in the Chronicles of Nanian : jnanian's Fabulously Funky Collection of Unusual and Effective Everyday Materiels and Emulsions...

Is there such a guide?! wow!!

Sal Santamaura · Oct 20, 2016

Nzoomed said:
...I get all my film scans printed on Fuji Crystal archive, (RA4) i believe this is the closest thing to cibachrome as far as dye stability goes...

On display, it's not even close to Cibachrome/Ilfochrome. It's far, far more stable.

kb3lms · Oct 20, 2016

I believe York is a photo store in the US.

Not quite, it was (maybe still is) a mail order film processing outfit. The sold York branded film that you could purchase and was shipped back with your processed photos. If you were a regular customer, you'd get coupons and the film could be almost free. Same as Solaris and the edge printing says "Ferrania". I still have about a dozen rolls in the freezer with 2009 expiration since I used to use York a lot before I processed my own. It's not a bad film. Compares favorably with any other "non-pro" film.

Photo Engineer · Oct 20, 2016

Chris Livsey said:
Why would that be so? More layers, but once running why more defects?
(I know buy the new Edition of the book ?

I had not considered including Ciba/Ilfochrome in the book but maybe I will.

Actually, Cibachrome has a silver halide layer above each dye/silver halide layer that reduces contrast and grain (to an extent) but also decreases sharpness. It therefore has 9 or more layers that are usually coated (or were) with a series of extrusion hoppers due to the difficulty in coating the dyes with a slide coater, but that meant many coating stations or passes through the machine. I believe that they finally solved the slide coating problem and coated it in 3 passes with a 3 slide hopper, but I'm not sure.

Ektachrome film is very touchy due to the nature of the reversal system itself. Since it cannot use DIR couplers, the process must correct color itself with no assistance from incorporated materials. The coating formulas are very complex when compared to a negative film and negative films are not simple.

PE

Chris Livsey · Oct 20, 2016

Photo Engineer said:
I had not considered including Ciba/Ilfochrome in the book but maybe I will.

that meant many coating stations or passes through the machine. I believe that they finally solved the slide coating problem and coated it in 3 passes with a 3 slide hopper, but I'm not sure.

Ektachrome film is very touchy due to the nature of the reversal system itself.

PE

Three passes through coating is enough explanation
Presumably the drying stresses between each pass will not be helpful to either the last coat or the next for physical stability and I also assume, always dangerous, that coating on a coating isn't fun either.
Still let's hope for the best from Ferrania, to move deftly back on topic, I always thought a "simple" B/W emulsion from an established stock formula would have been a good start but understand the market there is saturated and E6 is gap, perhaps understandably on both sales volume and technical production issues but still a gap to sell into.

Poisson Du Jour · Oct 20, 2016

Sal Santamaura said:
On display, it's not even close to Cibachrome/Ilfochrome. It's far, far more stable.

That may be true, but the modern day RA4 jobbing provides superior visual results to Ilfochrome and effortless repeatability with no fear of drift. None of us would go back to using Ilfochrome Classic if it was reintroduced tomorrow, we've moved on. Cost is one. Poor finishing/QC is another (followed closely by poor inventory management!) and the sheer specialisation requiring time and patience. Reams of printer's notes from two decades attest to that!

All my RA4 printing is to Kodak Endura Professional Plus MT Supergloss. Put an Ilfochrome and one of these side by side, and watch the reaction...

Photo Engineer · Oct 20, 2016

Add to that, raw stock keeping, corrosive chemicals and chemistry very bad for the environment when compared with RA4.

PE

Nzoomed · Oct 20, 2016

Sal Santamaura said:
On display, it's not even close to Cibachrome/Ilfochrome. It's far, far more stable.

You claim its more stable?!

If this is true, thats amazing!
perhaps PE can elaborate why this is so, since to my knowledge, RA4 does not use the stable azo dyes like cibachrome did

Either way, I dont see this paper (along with RA4) going away anytime soon, in fact, its use has probably increased, we have more labs offering this service and many digital photographers will get their prints done on it.

Poisson Du Jour · Oct 20, 2016

Nzoomed said:
You claim its more stable?!

That was part of its promotion and appeal. Somewhere on the web are statements that an Ilfochrome Classic print, framed and displayed/stored correctly, can last 250 to 300 years.
Whether this is fantasy or fact is hard to tell. None of us will be here then, but hey, no harm in leaving a lasting image.

Photo Engineer · Oct 20, 2016

While it is true that the Azo dyes in Ciba/Ilfochrome are more stable than the Azomethine dyes in all chromogenic color materials, recent advances in coupler chemistry over the years, and the use of stabilzers in the coating have advanced both Endura and Crystal Archive papers such that they can reach up to 200 years storage with no significant fade. Although Fuji and Kodak differ about each others product, the fact is they were tested under different conditions by each company and when you boil it down, it is pretty much a wash.

How is it done? Well, the big problems with all dyes are UV and oxidation and so the coatings now contain UV absorbers and oxidation prevention chemicals. The former are like the UV filters used on cameras and the latter are similar to vitamin C and vitamin E. You cannot apply these methods to Ciba/Ilfochrome because couplers are in encapsulated droplets and the preservatives can be included. In fact, the solvent making these droplets aid in preservation. The Sulfonic acid based Azo dyes cannot be encapsulated easily.

Anyhow, there it is. Coupling chemistry caught up!

PE

Nzoomed · Oct 20, 2016

Photo Engineer said:
While it is true that the Azo dyes in Ciba/Ilfochrome are more stable than the Azomethine dyes in all chromogenic color materials, recent advances in coupler chemistry over the years, and the use of stabilzers in the coating have advanced both Endura and Crystal Archive papers such that they can reach up to 200 years storage with no significant fade. Although Fuji and Kodak differ about each others product, the fact is they were tested under different conditions by each company and when you boil it down, it is pretty much a wash.

How is it done? Well, the big problems with all dyes are UV and oxidation and so the coatings now contain UV absorbers and oxidation prevention chemicals. The former are like the UV filters used on cameras and the latter are similar to vitamin C and vitamin E. You cannot apply these methods to Ciba/Ilfochrome because couplers are in encapsulated droplets and the preservatives can be included. In fact, the solvent making these droplets aid in preservation. The Sulfonic acid based Azo dyes cannot be encapsulated easily.

Anyhow, there it is. Coupling chemistry caught up!

PE

OK, interesting, so really they have just found ways to protect or at least slow down the dyes from oxidizing and UV fading, rather than changing the chemical formula of the dyes themselves?

I suspect these same methods apply to colour films also?

Photo Engineer · Oct 20, 2016

The structures of the dyes have change as well. These are covered in a series of ICPS articles and in patents. I didn't cover them as they are too technical, but they apply to films as well. Note that films no longer need a stabilizer but rather use a final rinse.

After all, this is what was done with Cibachrome dyes, but it is easier to do due to structure, "-N=N- vs -N=C=" bonds. Are you in a position to understand the organic chemistry? If so, please PM me.

PE

Sal Santamaura · Oct 21, 2016

Nzoomed said:
...I get all my film scans printed on Fuji Crystal archive, (RA4) i believe this is the closest thing to cibachrome as far as dye stability goes...

Sal Santamaura said:
On display, it's not even close to Cibachrome/Ilfochrome. It's far, far more stable.

Poisson Du Jour said:
That may be true, but the modern day RA4 jobbing provides superior visual results to Ilfochrome and effortless repeatability with no fear of drift. None of us would go back to using Ilfochrome Classic if it was reintroduced tomorrow...

I was very intentionally explicit when referring to "on display." Perhaps the rest of my construction was more ambiguous. It is RA4 that lasts longer in display, not Cibachrome/Ilfochrome. In dark storage, their life expectancies are reversed.

Nzoomed said:
You claim its more stable?!

If this is true, thats amazing!...

It is quite true. See page 135 here

Dead Link Removed

for Cibachrome/Ilfochrome results on display and Table 1 on page 44 here

Dead Link Removed

for Crystal Archive results under the same display conditions.

Poisson Du Jour said:
That was part of its promotion and appeal. Somewhere on the web are statements that an Ilfochrome Classic print, framed and displayed/stored correctly, can last 250 to 300 years.
Whether this is fantasy or fact is hard to tell...

Pure, unadulterated fantasy if on display. In dark storage, that sounds reasonable.

Photo Engineer · Oct 21, 2016

And yet Sal, these results have not been vetted nor approved for publication anywhere but by and at the Wilhelm institute. In addition, the Azo product is frozen in time, but the chromogenic products continue to evolve.

PE

Sal Santamaura · Oct 21, 2016

Photo Engineer said:
And yet Sal, these results have not been vetted nor approved for publication anywhere but by and at the Wilhelm institute. In addition, the Azo product is frozen in time, but the chromogenic products continue to evolve...

Ron, I know you've taken issue with Wilhelm's methods in the past, but the comparison between Cibachrome/Ilfochrome and Fuji Crystal Archive is made under consistent test conditions. Whether his 'years of display life' figures are completely accurate or not, they do provide a useful relative ranking of the products' light stability.

I suspect that your correct comment about the chromogenic products continuing to evolve will mean an even greater display life advantage for RA4 over Cibachrome/Ilfochrome in the future than can already be seen in the links I posted.

Photo Engineer · Oct 21, 2016

Sal, it can be shown that Endura and CA have entirely different properties when tested at 200 fc vs 500 fc. It can be shown that accelerated heat and humidity tests give different results as well due to the diffusion of oxygen into the coatings. The Cibachrome/Ilfochrome tests were not done under a wide variety of conditions, which when averaged out might show a different picture.

I have Cibachrome prints going brown when kept in the dark. They are right next to Kodak prints that are ok. BUT, the Ektacolor Plus prints in contact with the Ciba/Ilford prints are showing red dots. So, something is going on here. These are about 40 years old now.

Testing is a slippery slope and I advise not making conclusions based on a one test comparison. Who is to say what pollution gases might do to confound these types of results.

PE

Sal Santamaura · Oct 21, 2016

Photo Engineer said:
...Endura and CA have entirely different properties when tested at 200 fc vs 500 fc. It can be shown that accelerated heat and humidity tests give different results as well due to the diffusion of oxygen into the coatings. The Cibachrome/Ilfochrome tests were not done under a wide variety of conditions, which when averaged out might show a different picture...

Unfortunately, I've not been able to locate test results under the conditions you describe. Are they publicly available? If so, would you please direct me to the source(s). Absent such alternative data, I've nothing but Wilhelm to rely on. Thanks in advance,

Photo Engineer · Oct 21, 2016

Some results are found in the ICIS publication on image stability and others come from the RIT IPI publications, however, just look at the Fuji results for CA (done at 500 fc) and the Kodak results (done at 200 fc) to see the striking difference. Last time I looked these were on their web sites. However, just look at the Wilhelm tests done at 500 fc. Fuji is better than Kodak in those tests. That is what they use. If done at 200 fc, the results are reversed.

Or, as I did, you can run some yourself.

PE

Prest_400 · Oct 21, 2016

Not much organic chemistry knowledge here, but I always found fascinating the technical insights PE. I think Ferrania is a good heir to that APUG "barn" K-chrome thing that was going on a while ago.
And a good dose of realism showing us how their task is not easy, despite this, great to see they are slowly getting there.

Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

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