Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

Photo Engineer · May 21, 2016

Similar but different. Things at the head end of our machines moved a lot faster and the drying cabinets always were under tension and never loose as shown. The last time I saw coating all the layers started at one time.

PE

twelvetone12 · May 21, 2016

It actually seems they are feeding pre-coated material with the first two layers (anti halo and magenta), I thought all the layers should have been done in one go.

Photo Engineer · May 21, 2016

The hopper can coat a layer for every slide, and the text indicates that they are doing several at one time. It seems that they start each one and then move the hopper. It is unclear exactly what they are doing because it is the same but different, as i said.

PE

Diapositivo · May 21, 2016

A voice says at the end Scartare quaranta metri, quattro - zero (discard forty metres, four - zero).

Nzoomed · May 21, 2016

twelvetone12 said:
I got this is my "related videos" fro the previous one, it is fantastic. It is one of the last runs of the big coater at Ferrania. You see the drying tunnel when drying inkjet paper and, one of the control rooms for the coater (or coaterS? it says number 6 in the video!) and lastly the actual coating room and coating head during the startup of the coating operation! From the images posted by Ferrania you can see it is the same equipment. I really hope that the bulk of this machinery is safely in storage now.
@PE are they in any way similar to those in use at Kodak?

So i take it they were coating non-photosensitive inkjet paper in there as well? Im pretty sure they stopped production of photographic paper some time back. Either way, the lights were turned on, so this must be non-light sensitive.
I thought there was only one coater in that building, so im interested to hear from Ferrania regarding this, perhaps the video of the paper going through was taken at a different time?

Another note on hygene, whas the mask really necessary? The other person in the same room was not even wearing one lol
I also thought that contaminants were an issue?
There is a video from the Kodak factory in the 1950's and they took extreme measures to keep the area clean, it was essentially a clean room environment and the workers went through air showers to keep dust etc to a minimum. They also wore hair nets and gloves etc to keep the contaminants down as much as possible.
They even showed a list of products/foods that workers had to avoid while away from work that may contain contaminants to film.

Brazil nuts for example contain radium.

PE will obviously know more, in this area.

twelvetone12 · May 21, 2016

Nzoomed said:
So i take it they were coating non-photosensitive inkjet paper in there as well? Im pretty sure they stopped production of photographic paper some time back. Either way, the lights were turned on, so this must be non-light sensitive.

Yes I too think it is "plain" inkjet paper, the subtitle says "production of inkjet paper in white light"

Photo Engineer · May 21, 2016

But then they talk of coating several light sensitive layers. I can understand that much just by seeing it and listening well.

And yes, their clean room measures are a lot more lax than those at EK. The mask is needed, but IDK why the other guy was not wearing one. It is the mix of slight aerosols at the hopper that can harm one, especially the hardener which is very toxic.

PE

Nzoomed · May 21, 2016

Photo Engineer said:
But then they talk of coating several light sensitive layers. I can understand that much just by seeing it and listening well.

And yes, their clean room measures are a lot more lax than those at EK. The mask is needed, but IDK why the other guy was not wearing one. It is the mix of slight aerosols at the hopper that can harm one, especially the hardener which is very toxic.

PE

I couldn't make much of the Italian subtitles, but i did make out they were doing paper to start with.
I see at the end they were starting the coating heads and making sure the layers were flowing properly with the lights on and then they switched everything off and were in the dark for the remainder.

I expect they just scrap the first few meters that would have been exposed to light and they probably do alot of tests to check the coating thickness etc, as i expect once the machine runs up to full speed that things change, so i see how you waste alot of film at the beginning of each run.

cmacd123 · May 21, 2016

there are quite a few films that have an anti-halo back coating and presumably that would be done first?

the start up showed a coating showing up, and then the tech moves the head near the web. so that may have also been a first pass, or perhaps their is another coating head in the next room?

the coated film once the head is in place looks very close in colour (all things considered) to the appearance of colour negative film

Photo Engineer · May 21, 2016

Support layers are often done in a separate operation.

PE

twelvetone12 · May 22, 2016

I would be curious to know if there was more than one coater, it seems they could be running two operations in parallel. Or the coating of the acetate was done in a second moment, IDK.

Nzoomed · May 22, 2016

cmacd123 said:
the coated film once the head is in place looks very close in colour (all things considered) to the appearance of colour negative film

Yes, i would think so.
Solaris was their last and only film that was being produced by them before closure.
So its logical that it was this that was being coated!

I would love to see more of this footage, its facinating.

twelvetone12 said:
I would be curious to know if there was more than one coater, it seems they could be running two operations in parallel. Or the coating of the acetate was done in a second moment, IDK.

I was led to believe that there was just one coater in that building, but perhaps Ferrania was referring to a film coater in that facility, perhaps the other coater we are watching the paper go through was originally for photographic paper?

This would appear logical for photographic paper, as i remember PE saying that its alot more complex with photographic paper, and it has issues with paper dust, etc, this requires lots of filtration etc, would be alot of work cleaning everything between paper and acetate lines on the coater i would imagine.

The building is surely big enough to house more than one coating machine, the width of their master rolls is around 1.2m i believe?
Seems interesting that they were making inkjet photo paper in there, i didnt think that machinery would be designed for that purpose?

Diapositivo · May 22, 2016

Is there any place where it is stated that new Ferrania would coat paper as well?
I would be very glad if they plan to, but at the moment it seems they are only planning to produce film.

In a recent note, though, they said that they were able to buy more machinery that they had planned. Maybe they managed to save the paper coater but they are not presentily making any referral to it, to avoid putting too much meat on the expectation grill.

"The coating machine that we have is very flexible in terms of productivity and it can be configured in different ways depending on the level of demand of the market. We are talking about color film that is normally produced with 16 emulsion layers, unlike black and white film that needs only 2 or 4. A plausible production level for the plant will settle in about 24,000 sqm/year of color material in our first year."

Is it right that a square meter yields around 20 135 / 36 rolls?
If that is true, they are planning for the first year an equivalent production of 500.000 135/36 rolls (if I am not totally mistaken with the mathematics).

ME Super · May 22, 2016

You're very close, assuming no waste. 1m = 39.37in; a square meter is 1549.9969in. 1 roll 135/36 is approximately 80 sq. inches, so assuming no waste you'd get 19.37496125 rolls of film out of 1 square meter.

Europan · May 22, 2016

At Agfa-Gevaert, Mortsel, Belgium, a start waste of 20 cm is normal.

Photo Engineer · May 22, 2016

It is unusual to coat paper and film in the same room and on the same coater. The dust from the paper gets into everything and must be cleaned up. Film is finicky about this dust, but paper is not.

At one time, Kodak had 6 paper coaters terminating in one room. At that time, 4 were running 24/7 365 while 2 were down for maintenance. They ran at 1000 ft / min and the web was 42" wide yielding 40" of good film or paper. Waste was under 10%, and startup used at least 10 meters (or yards) before they went dark. Later, they ran at up to 3000 ft / min.

Each machine was threaded with 1 master roll of leader and used 1 master roll as trailer to keep it threaded. The path length was about 1 mile and folded back on itself via an air bearing turnaround which was basically 2 90 degree turns.

There, I said it.

PE

Sal Santamaura · May 22, 2016

Photo Engineer said:
...There, I said it...

Feel better now?

Ian Grant · May 22, 2016

The largest manufacturer of B&W papers coats films, papers - RC, FB and Inkjet on the same coating line and has done for over 30 years. It's quite normal these days.

Ian

Photo Engineer · May 22, 2016

Ian, I know several that do and several that do not. For that matter, Kodak could. EFKE could not unless they had a thorough cleanup after paper production.

And Sal, no, I don't feel better. I did it for you!

PE

cmacd123 · May 22, 2016

Ink Jet paper is more or less B&W RC paper with no light sensitive material I belive .... [Ron can correct me if I am incorrect] (the mixture is no doubt somewhat different but the coating is likely quite similar.)

AT the point that 3M spun them off, they were primarily doing contract and Private label work, so they could have been making the paper for anyone. Back when their was demand for colour paper, There was a 3M brand product and presumably that would have been where it was made. 3M used to be a fairly large player in the photofinishing business.

I would guess that 3M Microfilm, and 3M thermal silver paper would have also come from that facility. In the heyday or Microfilm, 3M had some unique machines that would photograph documents and develop the film and automatically insert it into file jackets.

Photo Engineer · May 22, 2016

Charles, Inkjet paper contains mordants or other materials like them to immobilize the dyes and prevent image smear. There are also chemicals which cause the paper to be instantly dry to the touch. Inkjet papers can be quite complex.

PE

Nzoomed · May 22, 2016

Photo Engineer said:
It is unusual to coat paper and film in the same room and on the same coater. The dust from the paper gets into everything and must be cleaned up. Film is finicky about this dust, but paper is not.
PE

Yes, this confirms what I believe you mentioned some time back.

Its obvious that there was more than one coater in that building, but how many coaters is the question.
Perhaps they only had one film coater? But then for redundancy they may have had one down for maintenance while the other ran 24/7.

Would be interested to hear more from Ferrania about the equipment in that building, there may have just been two divisions in that building, one film coater, and one paper coater?
There is another building behind the big boy coater that looks similar size, so im not sure if both those buildings contained coaters or not.

Photo Engineer said:
Charles, Inkjet paper contains mordants or other materials like them to immobilize the dyes and prevent image smear. There are also chemicals which cause the paper to be instantly dry to the touch. Inkjet papers can be quite complex.

PE

Yes i would imagine so, as you would think that ink on glossy paper would be smeary for ages but its dry to the touch instantly.

cmacd123 · May 22, 2016

Photo Engineer said:
Charles, Inkjet paper contains mordants or other materials like them to immobilize the dyes and prevent image smear. There are also chemicals which cause the paper to be instantly dry to the touch. {Non Light Sensitive} papers can be quite complex.

Thanks I wondered how complex they were, but the manufacturing process after the "mix" is made up would be similar? coat an exotic mixture on the web of paper and then chill and dry it? Although for that sort of paper you would not have to turn out the light.

Photo Engineer · May 22, 2016

I really don't know Charles. I believe that the same machines can be used, but when I left, Kodak did not use their equipment.

It might have been a question of capacity or cross contamination.

PE

mshchem · May 22, 2016

Photo Engineer said:
It is unusual to coat paper and film in the same room and on the same coater. The dust from the paper gets into everything and must be cleaned up. Film is finicky about this dust, but paper is not.

At one time, Kodak had 6 paper coaters terminating in one room. At that time, 4 were running 24/7 365 while 2 were down for maintenance. They ran at 1000 ft / min and the web was 42" wide yielding 40" of good film or paper. Waste was under 10%, and startup used at least 10 meters (or yards) before they went dark. Later, they ran at up to 3000 ft / min.

Each machine was threaded with 1 master roll of leader and used 1 master roll as trailer to keep it threaded. The path length was about 1 mile and folded back on itself via an air bearing turnaround which was basically 2 90 degree turns.

There, I said it.

PE

Unbelievable, At 3000 feet a minute that's over 30 miles per hour. I have been a darkroom geek since I was a little kid. I remember going to Kodak Park in the early 70's I think I was about 13, took the tour, everybody had to leave any matches etc. behind. I remember they would hand out Nice Yellow and Red book matches, with the Kodak logo at the end of the tour for the smokers. The injection molding machines making Instamatic (126) cartridges! All the buildings and labs, trains, there was something like 15 miles of RR tracks on site. I still have a Big postcard aerial view of the site. We rode around on a bus, only got out a couple of times. What an amazing time and place. I
Best Regards, Mike

Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

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