Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

trendland · Nov 1, 2018

Aha - I see, I read some before it is going about the Film backers rewards? Right?

So it is now my personal hard task to explain......don't beat me people :

Before you decide to invest "RISC" capital you should google what "RISC CAPITAL" means.......!

with regards

PS : Kickstarter is a modern way to avoid the term : "venture capital" pls. google in addition !

trendland · Nov 1, 2018

alanrockwood said:
A speculative thought about how a high-production machine might fit into a low-demand world: What if they were able to reformulate their films so they have longer shelf life? That would go a long way toward mitigating the problem of matching high production machines to a low-demand world. This strategy (even if it is technically feasible) would, of course, require investment in a large storage facility to dribble out the manufactured product as demanded by the market.

By the way, a few years ago I posted a comment that a Kodak employee had told me that film production had ceased at Kodak. I was roundly booed here at APUG (now PHOTRIO) for posting that comment. In retrospect, the Kodak employee was probably right. Kodak had probably shut down their production of new film for a time and just relied on stored film to sell product for a while.

They did it in the past Alan, they do it these day's and they will do it in the future. You got it !
By the way Fuji isn't manufacturing some of their films (still in production) today. So every single decision when storage comes to an end is on cost's of a New short run and followes with discontinuation.

with regards

PS : If we would decide what to do in case of massive losses from demand ? What would we do?
To stop production imediately and close the whole plant? The economical logic says : Better to run production with 100% power the next 3 weeks 24/7. After this the manufacturing comes to an end until further notice. And the result of such decision would be that local production managers would commend :
" crazy decision - we are producing in a scale wich the today's demand is telling us that scale is for the next coming years "

EXACTLY !

with regards

PS : in that other case of contstant production you have to press the Emergency Stopp bottom after 15 Minutes!

jonasfj · Nov 1, 2018

trendland said:
The comunication of FERRANIA is excellent, their marketing is excellent, their film is excellent - what is the problem here?

with regards

PS : Their task is also excellent : excellent hard !

If you find communicating the wrong time to reach a goal with almost 100% accuracy is excellent, so be it. If you mean good marketing is to build a hype that is never realized, then they are excellent! If you mean a film where the reds gets abnormally dark is a good thing, the film is excellent, except that you cannot buy it.

I wonder how many are waiting for the Film Is Alive Collector Box with the 135, 120, Super-8 and 16mm film, all with matching numbers in a nice display box?

The color reversal film will sadly never happen...

William Crow · Nov 1, 2018

Photo Engineer said:
My bad.

This thread presently has 174 pages.

Rudeofus · Nov 2, 2018

jonasfj said:
If you find communicating the wrong time to reach a goal with almost 100% accuracy is excellent, so be it. If you mean good marketing is to build a hype that is never realized, then they are excellent! If you mean a film where the reds gets abnormally dark is a good thing, the film is excellent, except that you cannot buy it.

Whatever you say, Ferrania is still alive and kicking, they brought out some B&W film to finance their operations. You may complain about this film, while others went out and shot great images with that film. In the meantime Ferrania figures out how to optimize that film, and they gather the necessary know how for making color film. Their current approach to making color slide film may be slow and riddled with uncertainties and unexpected road blocks, but that's an unfortunate yet common thing in engineering, that's why trained and experienced engineers are needed to get things done, and from what I read, they are actively working on it.

It appears you did not read what this kickstarter campaign was about, you did not read what any kickstarter campaign is about in general, you did not read what has been communicated ever since. Now you sit here screaming "where is the film I ordered? It's late, it will never arrive!". Dude, that's ridiculous.

warden · Nov 2, 2018

jonasfj said:
I wonder how many are waiting for the Film Is Alive Collector Box with the 135, 120, Super-8 and 16mm film, all with matching numbers in a nice display box?

Ooooo, I think I can figure it out! Let's see now... 116 people donated the $140.00 to receive this Kickstarter reward. First let's subtract a hundred people that can read better than a grade schooler.

Then subtract the thirteen people that were briefly confused about the complexity of the project and assumed they were pre-purchasing film, but then read this message from Ferrania right there on the Kickstarter: "We want to be clear that backing this project is not simply pre-purchasing film before its release. We are offering rewards in the truest sense of the word."

That leaves us with three. Three people that can't read or don't understand much about Kickstarter are actually standing by their mailboxes waiting on the Film Is Alive Collector Box with the 135, 120, Super-8 and 16mm film, all with matching numbers in a nice display box.

Of those three people waiting, I bet only one is angry enough to post dozens of messages on the internet complaining about every aspect of this inspired adventure. I wonder who it could be?

trendland · Nov 2, 2018

Rudeofus said:
Whatever you say, Ferrania is still alive and kicking, they brought out some B&W film to finance their operations. You may complain about this film, while others went out and shot great images with that film. In the meantime Ferrania figures out how to optimize that film, and they gather the necessary know how for making color film. Their current approach to making color slide film may be slow and riddled with uncertainties and unexpected road blocks, but that's an unfortunate yet common thing in engineering, that's why trained and experienced engineers are needed to get things done, and from what I read, they are actively working on it.

It appears you did not read what this kickstarter campaign was about, you did not read what any kickstarter campaign is about in general, you did not read what has been communicated ever since. Now you sit here screaming "where is the film I ordered? It's late, it will never arrive!". Dude, that's ridiculous.

Generally there is a danger from bandits if it goes about rare photograpical stuff wich is not digital.
(Digital manufacturers are mostly bandits) In concern of Kickstarter there are warnings - I remember
to read " warnings in concern of riscs " !
So the question here should be if FERRANIA is a group of bandits - right ?
(LOOK where they are located ITALY - some other people like "Al Capone" we remember...? )

But to come to an answer : If the People of FERRANIA are a group of bandits they have to be the
biggest losers in Bandit business - ever seen !!!!!!!!!!!

with regards

faberryman · Nov 2, 2018

Rudeofus said:
You may complain about this film, while others went out and shot great images with that film.

I have yet to see any great images from P30. Most people got a roll or two, shot around the neighborhood, and then developed it in the bathroom using their favorite developer and reported their time and temperature, which magically became "best practices". Then they posted a bunch of "Look, it works" photos. That's not to say it can't be a capable film once it is in production and readily available, but that's sometime in the future.

Harry Callahan · Nov 2, 2018

jonasfj said:
If you find communicating the wrong time to reach a goal with almost 100% accuracy is excellent, so be it. If you mean good marketing is to build a hype that is never realized, then they are excellent! If you mean a film where the reds gets abnormally dark is a good thing, the film is excellent, except that you cannot buy it.

I wonder how many are waiting for the Film Is Alive Collector Box with the 135, 120, Super-8 and 16mm film, all with matching numbers in a nice display box?

The color reversal film will sadly never happen...

There still is a difference between a kickstarter trying to revive an abandoned film factory and a well-practised film manufacturer like Kodak.
Now you musn´t understand that, but i think everyone here has understood that you are not satisfied with Ferrania and that you don´t belive in Ferrania ever producing color film - so you now can stop telling us about that.

faberryman said:
I have yet to see any great images from P30. Most people got a roll or two, shot around the neighborhood, and then developed it in the bathroom using their favorite developer and reported their time and temperature, which magically became "best practices". Then they posted a bunch of "Look, it works" photos. That's not to say it can't be a capable film once it is in production and readily available, but that's sometime in the future.

Now the question of course is what a "great image" is to you, but here are two guys who did not develop P30 in their bathrooms and produced pictures which are techincally flawless (good exposure+developement, overall even sharpness, good scan, no dust, scratches etc.):
https://emulsive.org/reviews/film-r...-at-film-ferrania-p30alpha-by-philip-harrison
http://www.filmferrania.it/news-articles/2017/alpha-testing

And if you read the first lines of Philip Harrisons article you might get a hint how the best practices-sheet "magically" was formed.

faberryman · Nov 2, 2018

Harry Callahan said:
Now the question of course is what a "great image" is to you, but here are two guys who did not develop P30 in their bathrooms and produced pictures which are techincally flawless (good exposure+developement, overall even sharpness, good scan, no dust, scratches etc.):
https://emulsive.org/reviews/film-r...-at-film-ferrania-p30alpha-by-philip-harrison
http://www.filmferrania.it/news-articles/2017/alpha-testing

Yep. None of those images look great to me. More mediocre at best.

jonasfj · Nov 2, 2018

faberryman said:
Yep. None of those images look great to me. More mediocre at best.

I like two of the photographs in the top link, i.e. when then man is interacting with the conductor and when another man is handing down a bag to someone. However, many of the images framed sloppy and it looks like he missed focus several times. I agree that the grain is well controlled as seen in the crops. The red sensitivity is another characteristic and some might like that. It is like using a filter for effect. It is not a general purpose film though.

I remember that I´ve seen a handful of great P30 images. Matt Marash shot some beautiful portraits, but those films were sadly scratched very badly. It seems like most people who laid their hands on the P30 just ran out and photographed their foot, a tree trunk, a car or something poorly lit and then developed their films haphazardly.

Tri-X in Xtol is still king!

tih · Nov 2, 2018

jawarden said:
Ooooo, I think I can figure it out!

Thank you! That made my day!

Rudeofus · Nov 2, 2018

I think the biggest mistake Ferrania made was to release their P30 film in 135 format instead of 120 or large format. Small format lends itself to casual shooting, street photography or "I'll just load it into my camera and shoot around" type photography, these are all types which rarely yield breath taking art within the first 36 attempts. Yes, I do like Jason's shot better than the shots posted in this emulsive.org link, but it's a different type of photography, with much more time to get composition and framing right. In addition Tri-X has been out there for ages, little wonder that better pics exist on Tri-X negs than on P30 negs from fresh stock.

If you take that emulsive.org link for what it is, a first impression of what P30 can do - or not, then it is quite clear that P30 works. Its lack of red sensitivity will hopefully go away in future iterations, Ferrania will need that knowhow anyway if they want to make color film, so let's rest assured they'll figure it out one way or another.

faberryman · Nov 2, 2018

Rudeofus said:
If you take that emulsive.org link for what it is, a first impression of what P30 can do - or not, then it is quite clear that P30 works.

Given the right marketing, perhaps it just working is enough to ensure success at a level they can sustain production. So far, charging a premium hasn't hurt them.

cmacd123 · Nov 2, 2018

faberryman said:
Given the right marketing, perhaps it just working is enough to ensure success at a level they can sustain production. So far, charging a premium hasn't hurt them.

It actually seems like quite a good film for some shots. the response of the old ADOX and EFKE film was also a touch different in the red end of the spectrum, and those films were quite popular even though they had a very soft emulsion and so were difficult to process. with the demise of EFKE, the ADOX formuals are in Limbo until the FotoImpex folks can get their New coating facilities working.

The Film design does date back to the 1950s (perhaps even earlier?) where this would have been a leading edge product.

it is not just another Tri-X clone wantabe, so it does (or would if regular access was available) seem to be a viable addition to a photographers tools.

Photo Engineer · Nov 2, 2018

Rudeofus said:
I think the biggest mistake Ferrania made was to release their P30 film in 135 format instead of 120 or large format. Small format lends itself to casual shooting, street photography or "I'll just load it into my camera and shoot around" type photography, these are all types which rarely yield breath taking art within the first 36 attempts. Yes, I do like Jason's shot better than the shots posted in this emulsive.org link, but it's a different type of photography, with much more time to get composition and framing right. In addition Tri-X has been out there for ages, little wonder that better pics exist on Tri-X negs than on P30 negs from fresh stock.

If you take that emulsive.org link for what it is, a first impression of what P30 can do - or not, then it is quite clear that P30 works. Its lack of red sensitivity will hopefully go away in future iterations, Ferrania will need that knowhow anyway if they want to make color film, so let's rest assured they'll figure it out one way or another.

Rudi, the 120 and LF films require specialized support and paper packaging. This would be very difficult in a startup.

PE

cmacd123 · Nov 2, 2018

Photo Engineer said:
Rudi, the 120 and LF films require specialized support and paper packaging. This would be very difficult in a startup.

Once you have 35mm film with holes, turning it into cassette loads is relatively easy. resurecting 120 would have meant getting their roll film machine back into service, sourcing backing and possibly having to have a batch of Spools made up to fit their machine.

jonasfj · Nov 2, 2018

Rudeofus said:
I think the biggest mistake Ferrania made was to release their P30 film in 135 format instead of 120 or large format. Small format lends itself to casual shooting, street photography or "I'll just load it into my camera and shoot around" type photography, these are all types which rarely yield breath taking art within the first 36 attempts. Yes, I do like Jason's shot better than the shots posted in this emulsive.org link, but it's a different type of photography, with much more time to get composition and framing right. In addition Tri-X has been out there for ages, little wonder that better pics exist on Tri-X negs than on P30 negs from fresh stock.

If you take that emulsive.org link for what it is, a first impression of what P30 can do - or not, then it is quite clear that P30 works. Its lack of red sensitivity will hopefully go away in future iterations, Ferrania will need that knowhow anyway if they want to make color film, so let's rest assured they'll figure it out one way or another.

Making 120 is much more complex than 135 film. The backing paper is not just any type. It has to have certain chemical characteristics so it does not react with the acetate base or emulsion. To roll it up together with the film on a spool is also a challenge.

Most successful business are able to keep complexity to a minimum. Some people who do not want to discuss the issues mock me by saying I wait for the Film Is Alive Collector Box, which I am not.

The problem is that promising to produce all those different film formats in one go show an incredible ignorance to what it takes. It's just evidence that these Italians are film romantics lacking any idea how to run a business. Backing paper? Slitting? Perforating Super-8 film?

The truth is that Ferrania at this moment cannot even produce P30.

I am not angry or bitter. That is just the simple truth. In February they will say that the shop will open in April and so forth.

The best would be for Ferrania to concede defeat and move on!

Harry Callahan · Nov 2, 2018

faberryman said:
Yep. None of those images look great to me. More mediocre at best.

And that´s the fault of P30...?

jonasfj said:
Making 120 is much more complex than 135 film. The backing paper is not just any type. It has to have certain chemical characteristics so it does not react with the acetate base or emulsion. To roll it up together with the film on a spool is also a challenge.

Most successful business are able to keep complexity to a minimum. Some people who do not want to discuss the issues mock me by saying I wait for the Film Is Alive Collector Box, which I am not.

The problem is that promising to produce all those different film formats in one go show an incredible ignorance to what it takes. It's just evidence that these Italians are film romantics lacking any idea how to run a business. Backing paper? Slitting? Perforating Super-8 film?

The truth is that Ferrania at this moment cannot even produce P30.

I am not angry or bitter. That is just the simple truth. In February they will say that the shop will open in April and so forth.

The best would be for Ferrania to concede defeat and move on!

Your incredible lack of knowledge about Ferranias plans can be seen as ignorance. Guess who was to finish all the different formats for the rewards? (hint: not Ferrania)
I think i get it now: You´re a Kodak-groupie.
"Oh, Ferrania is a fraud, they`re not fully transparent, they´ll never make it, and Tri-X is soooo beautifull..." and not a *single* word of critizism towards Kodak, though they also had (and have) some trouble in bringing back E100D.

warden · Nov 2, 2018

jonasfj said:
Making 120 is much more complex than 135 film. The backing paper is not just any type. It has to have certain chemical characteristics so it does not react with the acetate base or emulsion. To roll it up together with the film on a spool is also a challenge.

Most successful business are able to keep complexity to a minimum. Some people who do not want to discuss the issues mock me by saying I wait for the Film Is Alive Collector Box, which I am not.

The problem is that promising to produce all those different film formats in one go show an incredible ignorance to what it takes. It's just evidence that these Italians are film romantics lacking any idea how to run a business. Backing paper? Slitting? Perforating Super-8 film?

The truth is that Ferrania at this moment cannot even produce P30.

I am not angry or bitter. That is just the simple truth. In February they will say that the shop will open in April and so forth.

The best would be for Ferrania to concede defeat and move on!

Dude, you're a troll. Just embrace it. Fly the flag proudly.

jonasfj · Nov 2, 2018

Portrait using a Nikon F4 with a 50/1.2 AI-s lens. The film was Portra 400

Harry Callahan said:
And that´s the fault of P30...?

Your incredible lack of knowledge about Ferranias plans can be seen as ignorance. Guess who was to finish all the different formats for the rewards? (hint: not Ferrania)
I think i get it now: You´re a Kodak-groupie.
"Oh, Ferrania is a fraud, they`re not fully transparent, they´ll never make it, and Tri-X is soooo beautifull..." and not a *single* word of critizism towards Kodak, though they also had (and have) some trouble in bringing back E100D.

With my incredible lack of knowledge about Ferrania's plan, it still seems they are missed it. Who finished the different formats anyways?

Yes, I like Kodak and Ilford. I find Tri-X, TMAX, FP4+, HP5+ to be outstanding film stocks. Color negative I like Portra over 400H and color reversal I choose Velvia.

jonasfj · Nov 2, 2018

The Fujifilm Pro 400H (below) is almost identical to Portra 400 in this kind of light condition. The Portra excels when the lighting conditions are more difficult (larger dynamic range).

Hasselblad 503cx, 2.8/80 C T*

jonasfj · Nov 2, 2018

jawarden said:
Dude, you're a troll. Just embrace it. Fly the flag proudly.

I don't see a guy like you add any substance to any post. Sp, who's the troll?

warden · Nov 2, 2018

jonasfj said:
I don't see a guy like you add any substance to any post. Sp, who's the troll?

Who's the troll? Well, the one self promoting with Kodak and Fuji images on a Ferrania thread. Just my opinion of course.

wyofilm · Nov 3, 2018

jonasfj said:
The best would be for Ferrania to concede defeat and move on!

I am glad Ferrania isn't listening to you! I applaud their moxy.

Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

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