Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

RattyMouse · Apr 9, 2016

fdonadio said:
Recently, I started to grow a particular disgust for hashtags, as they get more and more popular in the mainstream media. But, this time, I felt good when I read #filmisalive

Way to go, Ferrania! I am not a backer, but I'm definitely buying your film when it's available!

Cheers.
Flavio

Absolutely. Yes.

Nzoomed · Apr 9, 2016

Photo Engineer said:
Well, that coating machine is rather tiny. I hope it is up to the capacity needed.

PE

Well, we have been told that they will be upgrading it with the spare prts from big boy and once volume and demand increases, they also will look at making a wider coating head i believe.

BTW. If this business model works successfully with Ferrania, is there any reason why Kodak and Fuji could not do the same with their research coaters? Im sure these guys would have far more resources at their fingertips if needbe.

Also im interested to know how the size of Ilfords coater compares, as i know they are not an overly high volume producer of film.

Photo Engineer · Apr 9, 2016

I can't really answer your questions. I can say that our large research machine seemed to be bigger than that one depicted. Does that give you an idea of scale?

PE

Nzoomed · Apr 10, 2016

Photo Engineer said:
I can't really answer your questions. I can say that our large research machine seemed to be bigger than that one depicted. Does that give you an idea of scale?

PE

OK, thats very helpful.
That means that Kodak's research machine has the potential for higher volumes of film production, and probably can be upgraded such as what Ferrania plan to do.

Was kodak's roll width wider than the Ferrania machine?
I think i remember you saying it was about 1.2m wide? That would give you about double the volume going through the coater if thats the case.

Photo Engineer · Apr 10, 2016

The largest research machine used rolls about 12" wide. But speeds were very high and the drying cabinets were huge compared to the ones depicted. I cannot even guess the Ferrania width.

Production machines started at 21" then 42" and the widest was 72".

PE

ME Super · Apr 10, 2016

IIRC the Little Boy coater is wide enough to do 8x10 with allowances for waste but not much wider than that. The Ferrania guys could give a definitive answer, though.

Diapositivo · Apr 10, 2016

I don't understand the fears about the coating machine.

People at Ferrania have certainly made some calculations about the machine being capable of producing a sufficient quantity of film to make the firm profitable and economically sustainable.
If all production is sold and production volume needs to be expanded, a new machine can be built, just as in the rest of the manufacturing industry, you can expand production by making an investment in new machinery.

It's a piece of metal, however precisely manufactured. It's not rocket science. People do this kind of stuff. Precision mechanics did not die when old Ferrania died.

In one of the videos produced by Ferrania they say that they contacted a European firm which is capable of producing any spare part for their machines, if memory serves. That, I infer, means that the firm could produce an entirely new machine identical to this, or a bigger one. They also say there is plenty of room in the factory which is at the moment empty, but that they hope to utilize in the future.

The only fear I have is that the production and sales don't reach the full capacity of the coating machine.

Photo Engineer · Apr 10, 2016

Completely correct and reasonable.

PE

FILM Ferrania · Apr 10, 2016

Diapositivo said:
I don't understand the fears about the coating machine.

People at Ferrania have certainly made some calculations about the machine being capable of producing a sufficient quantity of film to make the firm profitable and economically sustainable.
If all production is sold and production volume needs to be expanded, a new machine can be built, just as in the rest of the manufacturing industry, you can expand production by making an investment in new machinery.

It's a piece of metal, however precisely manufactured. It's not rocket science. People do this kind of stuff. Precision mechanics did not die when old Ferrania died.

In one of the videos produced by Ferrania they say that they contacted a European firm which is capable of producing any spare part for their machines, if memory serves. That, I infer, means that the firm could produce an entirely new machine identical to this, or a bigger one. They also say there is plenty of room in the factory which is at the moment empty, but that they hope to utilize in the future.

The only fear I have is that the production and sales don't reach the full capacity of the coating machine.

Our production capacity is so small that we are not worried about making too much film... In fact, we believe that we will have the other problem to worry about - not being able to produce ENOUGH for everyone.

As far as expanding capacity, we have a lot of options:

We can begin to put our salvaged equipment online for chemical synthesis, finishing and other aspects of production. Removing any non-coating-related bottlenecks are our first priority and by themselves will allow us to shave weeks off the time-to-market of any given batch.
We can also simply add people to the team. For a while, all of us will be continuing to perform multiple roles. But more people + more focus on specific tasks = more film. Easy and also very flexible.
Because we're small, flexible, and technology-based in very real way, it's very easy for us to make sure we're making the right stuff at all times. With a good online poll and some well-placed calls, we can pre-plan each batch to be optimized specifically to short-term demand. While this doesn't mean the factory makes more film, it does have a net effect of increasing capacity as it relates to sales.
As mentioned, we can also modify the coater in a number of ways. A wider head, and other mods that could make it faster, more efficient, or otherwise maximized.

Only once Little Boy is running 24/7 at maximized/optimized capacity will we need to consider other options. And from our perspective, that remains a distant-future prospect. In fact, who knows what might come on the market in the time it takes us to get up to our theoretical "full" capacity?

In the end, you are totally correct that building a new machine can be done. One might even make a case that precision mechanics are doing better than ever, and have been greatly aided by modern technology.

I will differ with you in that building a new coater IS kinda like rocket science - but rocket science isn't "rocket science" like it used to be, either... The guy that owns Amazon.com makes rockets. And lands them on a barge in the ocean - intact and ready to use again in a few months. So yeah - if Bezos can do THAT, we can make a new coater... (was it Bezos, or someone else? correct me if I'm wrong)

As Nicola said to me yesterday - all of these are problems he would LOVE to have.

Our next news post will explain that statement a little more thoroughly.

Ken Nadvornick · Apr 10, 2016

Actually, it was Elon Musk. Or to be more precise, the killer engineering team that has been assembled under his authority. But your point is still valid and relevant. Industrialized nations didn't become that way because they only knew how to make fire by rubbing two sticks together.

Ken

Mackinaw · Apr 10, 2016

Ken Nadvornick said:
Actually, it was Elon Musk. Or to be more precise, the killer engineering team that has been assembled under his authority......

This is off-topic, but Jeff Bezos is also involved in the reusable rocket business. Check out “Blue Origin.” Bezos successfully landed a rocket on earth a few months before Musk did.

Ken Nadvornick · Apr 10, 2016

I am aware, yes. But Bezo's program is only designed to fly tourists to the edge of the atmosphere for a stay of a few moments. Musk's program will fly NASA astronauts to the ISS, and is currently flying supplies to the same destination. He is also prepping for polar orbit launches (think: military payloads) from Vandenburg AFB in California. These will also be sea-based booster recovery efforts, according to what I have so far read.

Ken

flavio81 · Apr 11, 2016

FILM Ferrania said:
Our production capacity is so small that we are not worried about making too much film... In fact, we believe that we will have the other problem to worry about - not being able to produce ENOUGH for everyone.

Sounds like MUSIC to my ears!!

Avanti ferranisti!!

Nzoomed · Apr 11, 2016

Photo Engineer said:
The largest research machine used rolls about 12" wide. But speeds were very high and the drying cabinets were huge compared to the ones depicted. I cannot even guess the Ferrania width.

Production machines started at 21" then 42" and the widest was 72".

PE

I think Ferrania said that their "jumbos" were about 1.2M long IIRC, and that i think they cut them down around half that width for the coater. Looking by the photos i think the width of the film is at least 1 foot wide. I think Ferrania's plans are to speed up the coating process and hence the need for the addition of the extra drying cabinets from the big boy coater.

Nzoomed · Apr 11, 2016

Diapositivo said:
I don't understand the fears about the coating machine.

I never mentioned any fears around the coater, i was simply asking if Kodak and Fuji could not scale down future production with their coaters if they ever chose to do so.

pdeeh · Apr 25, 2016

Andrew O'Neill · Apr 25, 2016

Make bla-a-a-a-ck and white!

RattyMouse · May 14, 2016

Awfully quiet in this thread.

cmacd123 · May 14, 2016

hope the mice are busy working..

Nzoomed · May 14, 2016

cmacd123 said:
hope the mice are busy working..

Im thinking the same, I expect they are very busy heads down, hopefully we will see some news very soon that the first roll has come off the production line!

alanrockwood · May 15, 2016

I wonder what the price will be.

Nzoomed · May 16, 2016

alanrockwood said:
I wonder what the price will be.

I dont really care as long as i can shoot the stuff.
They did a survey on prices people want to pay, so i think it will be fair as i think the results were better than they expected.

ME Super · May 16, 2016

I'm definitely looking forward to the availability of Ferrania chrome films. As the fastest thing I can get right now is ISO 100, the 200 and 400 speed films look promising; I've even found myself drooling over the idea of a 640T offering, though I'd lose some of that speed because I need to filter it, either for 2700K tungsten bulbs or 5000K daylight bulbs/5500K daylight. I don't have any 3200K bulbs in my home - just 2700K tungsten and a few 5000K LED bulbs (BTW, I shot Portra 400 under the 5000K LED bulbs around Christmastime last year, and it looks pretty darn good!)

TheToadMen · May 16, 2016

ME Super said:
I'm definitely looking forward to the availability of Ferrania chrome films. As the fastest thing I can get right now is ISO 100, the 200 and 400 speed films look promising ...

There is still (cheap) colour negative film from AgfaPhoto available: AgfaPhoto Vista plus 200 and AgfaPhoto Vista plus 400.
Also Agfa slide film: AgfaPhoto CT precisa 100.

See: https://www.macodirect.de/en/film/?p=1&o=1&n=36&s=3

Nzoomed · May 16, 2016

ME Super said:
I'm definitely looking forward to the availability of Ferrania chrome films. As the fastest thing I can get right now is ISO 100, the 200 and 400 speed films look promising; I've even found myself drooling over the idea of a 640T offering, though I'd lose some of that speed because I need to filter it, either for 2700K tungsten bulbs or 5000K daylight bulbs/5500K daylight. I don't have any 3200K bulbs in my home - just 2700K tungsten and a few 5000K LED bulbs (BTW, I shot Portra 400 under the 5000K LED bulbs around Christmastime last year, and it looks pretty darn good!)

Im excited that they plan on making high speed E6 again, Ferrania had the fastest (3200 ISO) E6 film on the market at one time, i expect it would be significantly grainy, but hey, it does serve a purpose.

There is nothing that i can fault with scotchchrome either.

Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

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