Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

I second that. It would be okay if you did it now.

cmacd123 said:

No need for a shut down, BUT next time you have an announcement WHY NOT START A NEW THREAD! (do mention Ferrania in the title.) "Like Ferrania produces first in house converted P30" or "LRF coater back in Action at Ferrania" or "126 size Ferrania P30 to ship by 4th Quarter"

Click to expand...

I personally disagree as I use this thread to keep tabs on Ferrania. The thread is not _that_ active generally.

/Johan

jogr said:

I personally disagree as I use this thread to keep tabs on Ferrania. The thread is not _that_ active generally.
/Johan

Click to expand...

that is also why I would like to see this "general" thread continue, but with new ones on Progress made, so that their are no so many " Are we there yet" posts.

Remember that the P30 film formula was published on APUG a while back. So, anyone can make it.

PE

Photo Engineer said:

Remember that the P30 film formula was published on APUG a while back. So, anyone can make it.

PE

Click to expand...

I saved that image, but I am certain that the formulas for chemical sensitizers are not there.

fdonadio said:

I saved that image, but I am certain that the formulas for chemical sensitizers are not there.

Click to expand...

Yes, I belive that I only saw the "code numbers" which are proably in the other documents, perhaps in the same book.

Plus the pictured formula was boldly titled "Ortho" so there is probably another page with the extras needed to stretch it into an Orthopan.

Just a different dye or dyes.

BTW, this is an ancient formula, probably from about 1940. That is not to say it is not good!

PE

Photo Engineer said:

Just a different dye or dyes.
BTW, this is an ancient formula, probably from about 1940. That is not to say it is not good!
PE

Click to expand...

And the teaser Photo only had the code numbers for the dyes. without those in the mix , you may as well just shoot fine grain release positive. 2/3/5/7302.

Well, if from about 1940, then it would probably use the then extant German dyes which are published.

PE

cmacd123 said:

that is also why I would like to see this "general" thread continue, but with new ones on Progress made, so that their are no so many " Are we there yet" posts.

Click to expand...

I think it would be too confusing to start several threads every time something happens. Dave would have to answer the same question in every thread and the "are we there jet" post would pop up in the new threads as well - but the new threads would lack the background this thread provides (well if anyone does read through it completely) - so keeping this one-for-all-thread should be better.

I don't understand the lack of support for the difficult undertaking to which Ferrania has committed itself. They've been sharing their progress,challenges, and frustrations openly with this site. They've already produced an emulsion which has been lauded by users. Does anyone really believe they can go from scratch to final product in a short time? Isn't it preferred they get it right, rather than we get it quick?
I don't shoot much 35mm, and haven't shot color in years, but I'm rooting for them (especially if the b/w film is offered in 120 and sheets). If successful, they may inspire others to offer analog products. (A wishful thinker might even hold out hope that some Fuji film techs rescue their coating machines and go solo, producing their products again.)

220 B&W please.

Arthurwg said:

220 B&W please.

Click to expand...

The pioneers always listen to the market demands and these ideas will be put into practice rigorously ….

Super8 first, please ;-)

twelvetone12 said:

Super8 first, please ;-)

Click to expand...

I really like your modest way ...

Arthurwg said:

220 B&W please.

Click to expand...

Seconded that.. but to be fair i'd prefer a faster emulsion for medium format. A honest 200 ISO would be good, i wouldn't care if its grainer than other films as long as tonality is to die for.

I already have a subject planned for when P30 comes out in 120.

eddie said:

I don't understand the lack of support for the difficult undertaking to which Ferrania has committed itself. They've been sharing their progress,challenges, and frustrations openly with this site. They've already produced an emulsion which has been lauded by users. Does anyone really believe they can go from scratch to final product in a short time? Isn't it preferred they get it right, rather than we get it quick?
I don't shoot much 35mm, and haven't shot color in years, but I'm rooting for them (especially if the b/w film is offered in 120 and sheets). If successful, they may inspire others to offer analog products. (A wishful thinker might even hold out hope that some Fuji film techs rescue their coating machines and go solo, producing their products again.)

Click to expand...

In a word....entitlement. A good number of people here feel entitled to Ferrania E6 film NOW because they are under the impression they paid for it when they supported the kickstarter campaign.They do not take in the info from Dave Bias because they mis-interpreted the original campaign as meaning they were ordering and paying for E6 film.

Ferrania via Dave Bias have been so open it's refreshing and at the same time sad to see ill-informed people shout them down.

As for Fuji...sadly that is not the Japanese way....or the Fuji way. They'll crasp the machines and won't let anyone near them, or their formulae.

I understand that Mr. Bias has stated that 220 is not likely and that it's not as simple as making 120 with different paper. The equipment for producing finished 220 rolls wasn't saved and it is not possible to simply make 120 film and tack paper onto it....I think PE has said something similar about how Kodak used to make 220.

Agulliver said:

They do not take in the info from Dave Bias because they mis-interpreted the original campaign as meaning they were ordering and paying for E6 film.

I understand that Mr. Bias has stated that 220 is not likely and that it's not as simple as making 120 with different paper. The equipment for producing finished 220 rolls wasn't saved and it is not possible to simply make 120 film and tack paper onto it....I think PE has said something similar about how Kodak used to make 220.

Click to expand...

Two very good points here.

First being that you're right - for as open as we have been about our process, there are some who simply do not care. They treat Kickstarter like a store (a subject Kickstarter themselves wrote a treatise about) and they simply don't read the updates, resulting in some generally indignant/angry messaging. We even have a few demanding refunds, which is really just not the way Kickstarter works 99.9% of the time. Recently, a Backer informed me that they never read a single update and had no intention to do so. At least that one was honest, I guess...

Fortunately for us, the VAST majority have been through extended (delayed) Kickstarter projects before and they understand both how Kickstarter works AND the complex nature of what we are trying to do for the long term.

Second point, regarding 220. We understand that there is demand. We're not entirely sure about the volume of demand and whether it is even sustainable for us - but we will make an effort to learn these things when we are ready. Making 220 will require a not-insignificant investment in our 120 line - or building a new 220 line based on blueprints that we have. In either case, we must approach this format - like all formats - cautiously and only once production capacity meets certain milestones. If the math works out that a) the demand is strong enough to guarantee a baseline quantity, and b) the machinery costs to make 220 are recoupable in a reasonable amount of time - then sure. Why not?

FILM Ferrania said:

Two very good points here.

First being that you're right - for as open as we have been about our process, there are some who simply do not care. They treat Kickstarter like a store (a subject Kickstarter themselves wrote a treatise about) and they simply don't read the updates, resulting in some generally indignant/angry messaging. We even have a few demanding refunds, which is really just not the way Kickstarter works 99.9% of the time. Recently, a Backer informed me that they never read a single update and had no intention to do so. At least that one was honest, I guess...

Fortunately for us, the VAST majority have been through extended (delayed) Kickstarter projects before and they understand both how Kickstarter works AND the complex nature of what we are trying to do for the long term.

Click to expand...

Your first point is fair comment. However, I can understand backers (myself included) being very disappointed that the original "rewards" of E-6 film have never appeared after some four years. Yes, anyone who read the original plans should have appreciated that the funds were actually for rescuing machinery, and not "buying" film. OTOH, I believe that Ferrania contributed to the misunderstanding by suggesting that machinery, film,chemicals and knowhow were all on hand, ready-and-waiting to produce rewards within months, without any indication of possible problems in fulfilling this part of the program.

I don't believe that this was deliberate, but I do think that, with the wonders of hindsight, there were faults on both sides.....perhaps the Kickstarter "treatise" is timely.

When we are already talking about the future products then how likely is to get P30 as sheet film (4x5, 8x10)? Will it need simple adjustments or investment similar to 220?

Dave, could you give us an update on 120? You mentioned several months back that you were planning a trial run of P30 in the 120 format in April. Did that ever happen?

Jim B.

railwayman3 said:

Your first point is fair comment. However, I can understand backers (myself included) being very disappointed that the original "rewards" of E-6 film have never appeared after some four years. Yes, anyone who read the original plans should have appreciated that the funds were actually for rescuing machinery, and not "buying" film. OTOH, I believe that Ferrania contributed to the misunderstanding by suggesting that machinery, film,chemicals and knowhow were all on hand, ready-and-waiting to produce rewards within months, without any indication of possible problems in fulfilling this part of the program.

I don't believe that this was deliberate, but I do think that, with the wonders of hindsight, there were faults on both sides.....perhaps the Kickstarter "treatise" is timely.

Click to expand...

I also can understand when somebody is dissapointed, especially when he missunderstood the goal of the campaign. And if he then said "I am dissapointed because it seemed like there would be color film within a few months" or simmilar i´m ok with that.
But there have been several on this thread heavily ranting about Ferrania having lied, having commited a fraud etc., partially completely ignoring what the campaign was about and what problems did occur, partially unforseeable problems. They seem to be desperate in finding a lie, in revealing a fraud and if then a local italian newspaper does mention something about x-ray-film, not stating whether Ferrania once did produce it or now does produce it, well then this must mean that Ferrania is lying etc. .
Every progress Dave does report about "definitely is bad news" and if one does explain what problems Ferrania did have to face they just don´t give a damn about it.

That´s not an adult behaviour, this is not being dissapointed.

The only fault which *might* be in the Kickstarter is that Ferrania might have put a little bit too much emphasis on the color film itself. But if they only had written about saving the machines they couldn´t have made the Kickstarter at all because they have to give some sort of reward. And there were clear sentences like: This isn´t simply about giving money for film. We need the money to save the machines etc...
Indicating possible problems is difficult. The problems were nearly unforseeable, like the asbestos or the dammaged water pipe etc. . I mean ok, if you go into an older building there is a change of asbestos being in there, though as far as i know they allready started to ban asbestos in the 60s (?) so it isn´t very likely to find asbestos 50 years later still in place and they had a hell of other problems to think about - and in the end they also would have had to tell in their campaign that there also is the risk of some or several team-members suffering a heart attack or being killed in a car crash, because this also is a possible problem to be precise.

In the end the campaign was and is an endeavour and endeavours often don´t work out as intended and also often just fail. That´s also what Kickstarter is about. A founder cannot guarantee success, all he does is to present his plan and if enough people think that his plan is good he/they give it a try .
But this is what some just don´t seem to understand. Which is sad because they contributed to saving machines, receipes etc. of nearly priceless value for the analog community.
If all those being dissapointed were aware of what they helped to save they really could be proud of themselfes. I am gratefull to everyone having backed Ferrania because the analog future would look (a lot) darker without Ferrania. And they havn´t failed jet. In fact its looking pretty good, because when they widened the bottle neck they will be a lot more stable and capable of facing the future.
But for some this also "definitely is bad news" and that´s why i also can understand those, who don´t understand those being dissapointed (its getting complicated right now...).

At the time of the kickstarter, there was a window of time in which Ferrania could have used existing chemicals and equipment to run one last batch of "Scotchcrome" before all the building work etc. That's what I understood at the time. And the backers would have received their rewards from that last batch. Then the plan was always that the LRF needed much work, machines and building renovating.....and the slow process of manufacturing colour E film from scratch would begin.

What happened was that nobody foresaw the services to the building being cut off....losing that window of opportunity.

Of course all of this was explained but some people either refuse to read or wilfully misunderstood....and feel somehow they've been cheated. Ferrania even offered the chance to have P30 rewards instead of E6.

I liken this to an American firm which is attempting to produce cassette tape...the first made in the USA in over 30 years, using machines of that vintage which were converted to make magnetic stripes for credit cards. The machinery is 45 feet long, extremely complex (rather like making photographic film)....has to be reconverted (de-converted?) to make magnetic tape again.....and they need to formulate their own oxides. They're six months behind schedule and already people in that particular world of forums are throwing their toys out of the pram saying that the company has cheated, lied, or even failed. The company in question hasn't engaged with social media or forums as much as Film Ferrania, and I can well see why. Some of the people who profess to like a dying media format are acting like spoiled children.

Keeping in mind that even Kodak is having a Dickens of a time bringing back its own Ektachrome after it has only been out of production a few years. One would think they just have to mix up a new batch of goo from their own recipe and let the machines rip. Apparently it’s not that simple.