Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

Truzi · Jun 23, 2017

Diapositivo makes an excellent point:

Diapositivo said:
Man, this is a forum, not a PR press conference. (etc.)

We are interacting with Ferrania on an equal footing in these forums.

I think some disappointment and negativity is to be expected, but some of it is as unrealistic as it claims the rewards schedule was.

This is the first Kickstarter I've participated in, but I've watched them before, so did not expect anything to be on schedule. I also knew from the beginning (since I am literate) that the investment was to purchase equipment; the film was promised as a reward, not the goal. Simply browsing Kickstarter projects of any kind can give a good idea of the likely progression. When I donated, I did so based on my desire for the factory to re-open and belief they would deliver, but NOT on any belief on when they would deliver.

Do I wish I had the film by now? Yes, but I'm not angry, because I know things don't always go as planned.

Kickstarters in general are a risk - any "start-up" opportunity is. The fact it is in the 21st Century and on the internet does not mitigate potential risks.

Also, this is not the first time a photography-related Kickstarter has been in a situation like this. Camera projects have had long delays and unforeseen problems. There was negativity on APUG, but not nearly this great. I believe New55 had similarly started selling items to further finance promised rewards - there was negativity on APUG, but not nearly this great (actually, most saw it as a bonus).
Perhaps the intensity of dissatisfaction is because Ferrania has a broader base of potential customers than some other projects.

Photo Engineer · Jun 23, 2017

ericdan said:
Does that mean Kodak is also very unlikely to reintroduce Ektachrome in Q4 this year as announced in January?

A very unreasonable assumption from my comment. Remember that EK has a coating line up and running.

PE

Prof_Pixel · Jun 23, 2017

Photo Engineer said:
Remember that EK has a coating line up and running.

... but do they have any knowledgeable Ektachrome product engineers?

railwayman3 · Jun 23, 2017

Toffle said:
Unbelievable indeed. Given the baiting and bashing that Dave has witnessed on this thread, (not to mention personal attacks on his integrity) I would say that he has been a model of patience and decorum. I don't blame him for getting a little peeved. You could claim the moral high ground if your own posts were the model to which Dave should aspire. His tone is far less insulting than the mud slinging I see here.

What's unbelievable is his sarcasm and rudeness to those of us who backed the Kickstarter (at a higher level) (i.e. actually GAVE REAL MONEY to the instigators to support their dream) and still retain enough interest to try to put forward suggestions, comments and ideas BECAUSE WE STILL CARE ABOUT ANALOG PHOTOGRAPHY, AND WANT FERRANIA TO SUCCEED !

Can you really see any serious business, start-up or otherwise, allowing its spokesman to vent his sarcasm on a public forum "If we do go out of business at some point in the future, you are free to give yourself a giant pat on the back for being so insightful." This needs to be recorded and taught in management training as how NOT to deal with backers and prospective customers ! I imagine Kodak came in for some bad abuse (it certainly did on APUG, both fair and unfair) during its darkest days, but I never saw any response like that. Ilford has also not been without its critics on here, but Simon Galley was always the model of patience in trying to clear up problems and misunderstandings.

railwayman3 · Jun 23, 2017

Prof_Pixel said:
... but do they have any knowledgeable Ektachrome product engineers?

Well, I don't think that E6 and C41 are dissimilar in coating needs or even in the base process, and Kodak seem to be manufacturing consistently good C41 films.
So I think we can assume that they do still have a few knowledgeable product engineers running the existing equipment.

Berri · Jun 23, 2017

Sal Santamaura said:
If you can't justify your criticisms, the old saying many mothers express to their children ("If you've nothing nice to say, say nothing") seems appropriate.As best I can determine, Film Ferrania is a commercial enterprise, not a Christian sect. Turning the other cheek is what members of the latter group do. Defending themselves when attacked typifies behavior of the former category.

I am utterly impressed by Dave's patience and general implacability in this thread. Keep it up, Dave. You're a better man than I am.

My criticism is as follows: their promises were broken and not because bad things happened, but because they never had a realistic time table and the reason why they never had a realistic time table is because if they had said it would have taken 5 years before you:d get, not what you'd expected, but a black and white film nobody would have backed the project. I also do not think that Dave is making a providing a good service to Ferrania because, as I said before, a serious company would not allow such sarcasm towards possible customers.

I would like to reassure Dave that I'll buy Ferrania colour films anyway, and that I am not hoping in any way for them to go out of business

faberryman · Jun 23, 2017

I think Film Ferrania has forgotten that 5500 backers gave them over $320,000 to help them achieve their dream. That fact seems to have gotten lost in the discussion. When you are years late in sending out rewards, and there is no fulfillment date in sight, you should expect a little push back, and continue to remain grateful.

Photo Engineer · Jun 23, 2017

E6 and C41 film products are totally different in many respects. Kodak has no E6 product engineers, but they have experienced C41 engineers, a running coating line and the most modern plant and formulas possible. Lets wait and see in both cases. (BTW, I hear that EK is hiriing.)

And, as for Dave, I give him credit for taking the brunt of the comments here. You guys should give him a break for a change.

PE

pdeeh · Jun 23, 2017

railwayman3 said:
What's unbelievable is his sarcasm and rudeness to those of us who backed the Kickstarter (at a higher level) and still retain enough interest to try to put forward suggestions, comments and ideas BECAUSE WE STILL CARE AND WANT FERRANIA TO SUCCEED !

That's a high horse you've mounted there, old bean. Let's hope you have a good "seat".

Rudeofus · Jun 23, 2017

Berri said:
My criticism is as follows: their promises were broken and not because bad things happened, but because they never had a realistic time table and the reason why they never had a realistic time table is because if they had said it would have taken 5 years before you:d get, not what you'd expected, but a black and white film nobody would have backed the project. I also do not think that Dave is making a providing a good service to Ferrania because, as I said before, a serious company would not allow such sarcasm towards possible customers.

If a project runs into serious delays (and we have heard on many occasions that most of these delays were truly unexpected, not some made up excuses post facto), there are two ways to resolve this: either you call it quits, get some heckling for a week or two and move on. Or you try to keep it going, try to turn the funds and the trust they put towards you into a product despite all these delays and obstacles. IMHO the latter path is the more honest one, but it requires a lot of extra effort and stamina. All these "I knew you would fail" comments from the side lines are not helpful in any way, and I can understand (from personal experience), that people already stressed out by engineering and logistics problems turn grouchy and sarcastic on hecklers.

Putting forward some money on crowd funding sites does not entitle anyone to participation in a dunk tank game with the funded company or its representatives. Your criticism, as constructive or helpful as it may have been intended, was neither. It cleared none of Ferranias administrative and legal obstacles, it solved no technical problem.

afriman · Jun 23, 2017

pdeeh said:
That's a high horse you've mounted there, old bean. Let's hope you have a good "seat".

Exactly how do you regard what he said as "mounting a high horse"? Please explain.

afriman · Jun 23, 2017

faberryman said:
I think Film Ferrania has forgotten that 5500 backers gave them over $320,000 to help them achieve their dream. That fact seems to have gotten lost in the discussion. When you are years late in sending out rewards, and there is no fulfillment date in sight, you should expect a little push back, and continue to remain grateful.

Grateful, yes. But more importantly, graceful.

railwayman3 · Jun 23, 2017

Photo Engineer said:
E6 and C41 film products are totally different in many respects. Kodak has no E6 product engineers, but they have experienced C41 engineers, a running coating line and the most modern plant and formulas possible. Lets wait and see in both cases. (BTW, I hear that EK is hiriing.)

PE

Encouraging, particularly the point that EK is hiring.

Nzoomed · Jun 23, 2017

Photo Engineer said:
E6 and C41 film products are totally different in many respects. Kodak has no E6 product engineers, but they have experienced C41 engineers, a running coating line and the most modern plant and formulas possible. Lets wait and see in both cases. (BTW, I hear that EK is hiriing.)

And, as for Dave, I give him credit for taking the brunt of the comments here. You guys should give him a break for a change.

PE

So when EK stopped Ektachrome, is it safe to assume they simply made those engineers redundant?
If they are to bring back Ektachrome will they re-employ these people or retrain current employees?
Im sure there must be people still at the plant that have had some experience with coating the film.
The people responsible for synthesising the chemistry to go into the emulsion would be the most cruical part i expect.

Lets hope that they can continue to train future employees to make film for years to come.
We need to do our bit and shoot the stuff!

MattKing · Jun 24, 2017

Nzoomed said:
The people responsible for synthesising the chemistry to go into the emulsion would be the most cruical part i expect.

Does Eastman Kodak do any of that work now?

Wallendo · Jun 24, 2017

The Ferrania team is obviously learning on the job. Maybe they promised too much too soon. But, keeping quiet would not have really worked well. There are many photographers who are not familiar with the brand name. Many of us who have shot Ferrania in the past have done so with relabelled products. Keeping quiet, Ferrania's efforts may have already been forgotten.

The E-6 market appears to have passed its nadir and is making some comeback. For now, I am happy to shoot Velvia and Provia and hopefully Ektachrome soon. I can wait for my FerraniaChrome reward.

Longer term, I am still hopeful that Film Ferrania will be successful. A "right sized" color film producer can be successful going forward. When Kodak and Fuji can no longer justify manufacturing miles of film, Ferrania products may be our only source of color film.

I tend to give Ferranis's official presence on APUG a little slack. Fuji, Kodak, and Foma have no official presence . "Ilford Technical Support" posts here rarely, though Harman still benefits from the goodwill created by Simon Galley over many years.

Prest_400 · Jun 24, 2017

Wallendo said:
I tend to give Ferranis's official presence on APUG a little slack. Fuji, Kodak, and Foma have no official presence . "Ilford Technical Support" posts here rarely, though Harman still benefits from the goodwill created by Simon Galley over many years.

Forgot about ADOX, which could be a comparative to Ferrania being a small film company. If you dig around, they have had a few projects going on. They wanted to put a direct replacement/reproduction of Agfa APX 100+400 and did a test run of the latter but the project is on hold because of market circumstances (aka, why another 100, 400 B&W film?). Forte Polywarmtone is something they have been researching for long as well.
They produced CHSII instead, and the last status was that they had to adapt production to the new Marly facility and it is on the works. Not easy.

The difference though is the Kickstarter. Producing a single run of E6 using legacy chemicals ended not being possible and I fear Chrome is still a while away from being materialised.
But there's a film and it is P30!

ME Super · Jun 24, 2017

Prest_400 said:
Forgot about ADOX, which could be a comparative to Ferrania being a small film company. If you dig around, they have had a few projects going on. They wanted to put a direct replacement/reproduction of Agfa APX 100+400 and did a test run of the latter but the project is on hold because of market circumstances (aka, why another 100, 400 B&W film?). Forte Polywarmtone is something they have been researching for long as well.
They produced CHSII instead, and the last status was that they had to adapt production to the new Marly facility and it is on the works. Not easy.

The difference though is the Kickstarter. Producing a single run of E6 using legacy chemicals ended not being possible and I fear Chrome is still a while away from being materialised.
But there's a film and it is P30!

Hear hear! I'm waiting for the shop to open up again, as I'd love to try a roll or two of P30 myself. I'd have pre-ordered some earlier, but I don't shoot much B&W, so shooting it in 120 makes more sense to me than 35mm. Having said that, my circumstances have changed, and I now have a second 35mm SLR body I can use for B&W. While I was visiting my parents last weekend for Father's day, my dad showed me a "toy" type camera that I'd used while I was in high school. 35mm, single shutter speed, non-interchangeable 50mm lens, but four apertures (f/16, f/11, f/8, and f/6). I think that might be just the camera to try the P30 in once the pre-orders have all been filled.

If Ferrania can come up with an ISO 400 E-6 film, they'll have that market all to themselves since both Kodak and Fuji stopped manufacture of that speed of slide film.

afriman · Jun 24, 2017

ME Super said:
If Ferrania can come up with an ISO 400 E-6 film, they'll have that market all to themselves since both Kodak and Fuji stopped manufacture of that speed of slide film.

+1
Filling a gap in the market would be a much more sensible move IMO than trying to compete head-on with similar-speed films from Fuji and Kodak.

railwayman3 · Jun 24, 2017

afriman said:
+1
Filling a gap in the market would be a much more sensible move IMO than trying to compete head-on with similar-speed films from Fuji and Kodak.

+another 1
And, given that the original plan to make the "Reward" films (presumably 100 ISO? )from existing materials had to be abandoned, and new R&D is now being carried out, would it be more difficult to formulate the new Ferraniachrome as a 400 ISO version ?
It's going to be difficult to directly compete with any existing trusted high-quality products from the big makers (or even the trusted smaller brands), and it worries me that Ferrania can pull sufficient volume of sales from these. OTOH, it could just be that the niche products ("odd" types and sizes, etc.) with little or no competition is the way to go.

Prest_400 · Jun 24, 2017

Well, given the "flexibility" of the development it could very well be done. It is down to the Formulas on hand and possibility of relatively easy manufacture. However, as PE mentioned, making a slow film is easier than a fast one and this may very well hold for colour materials. Maybe for that, and ISO 100 is a first step instead.

But yes 400D and 640, 800-1600 wizardry film would be quite interesting!

On another note, I was reading about E6 infrastructure and seemingly spain has got only one last lab (and a good one at it) developing E6 (dip and dunk). That's for a country of 40+M pop.Barcelona doesn't have any E6 lab anymore. Though I saw some guerrilla lab one man operation doing 6 bath E6 on a Jobo.
I should buy another Propack of Provia amd get to shoot it. 35mm Fujichrome IS really expensive at 15€ a roll or so. 120 is rather reasonable sitting slightly above C41 films, as it was mentioned by Flavio in some of these discussions.
Kinda scary!

BAC1967 · Jun 24, 2017

ME Super said:
If Ferrania can come up with an ISO 400 E-6 film, they'll have that market all to themselves since both Kodak and Fuji stopped manufacture of that speed of slide film.

Keep in mind that a big part of re-starting E6 production was for a reversal movie film. ISO 400 film would not be as useful as ISO 100 for that purpose.

Photo Engineer · Jun 24, 2017

An ISO 400 film is quite a bit harder than an ISO 100 film unless you have an existing formula to work from.

PE

cmacd123 · Jun 24, 2017

Photo Engineer said:
An ISO 400 film is quite a bit harder than an ISO 100 film unless you have an existing formula to work from.
PE

and it has been a while since their were the fast scotch-chrome films. most of ferannias output in the last several years of full production was c-41 colour negative for the private label market. Not sure of their is ANY technology that crosses over between slide and Negative films. (OTOH, Scotch-3M did have some Very fast slide films at one time) including a 1000 and a 640T

Don Harpold · Jun 24, 2017

Hello Dave
From some of the tests that have been posted here and the website it looks like this might be a film I want to use a lot, do you know when we would be able to purchase more?
I know you still haven't gotten out all the pre-orders yet.
Thanks
Don

I sent you a "conversation" on my order number

Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

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