HCC-110 with Fujifilm Neopan 400

dreamingartemis · Feb 8, 2012

I know this has been asked but usually the thread devolves into Rodinal, Xtol and some other brand. I've used HCC-110 for HP5+ and it looks okay but when I tried it with Neopan 400 at 5 minutes with Dilution B, it looks like total crap (and this was after I developed 8 rolls with ). Contrast is wildy out of control and the sharpness looks bad along with shadow details.

Though it could be due to my scanner when I prescan to get a feel what the negs would look if I printed them.

Here is a run down of what I used and done

1. Development using HCC-110 at Dilution B (1:7) at 5 minutes 20 celcius
2. Stop bath with distilled vinegar at 1:9 for one minutes at 20 celcius (cannot find any stop bath indicator here so I improvided)
3. Ilford rapid fixer at 1:4 for 5 minutes as well, all same temp.

Am I doing something wrong? The negs come out looking rather thick. I have heaps of this film which I managed to buy cheap (because they were on sale and no where near their expiry date yet). I only have HCC-110 for now since I first tried it with my HP5+ and Pan F which works well but I've seen some incredible results by other people with neopan and thought I give it a go...

perkeleellinen · Feb 8, 2012

HC110 and Neopan 400 is my regular B&W set up.

I develop using dilution H (1:63) for 15 minutes and that gives me a quite dense neg that I then print hard.

I get my dilution info from this page and it says dilution B is 1:31 not 1:7 as you say. How are you mixing up? One shot? Are you using the 'Euro' version?

dreamingartemis · Feb 8, 2012

perkeleellinen said:
HC110 and Neopan 400 is my regular B&W set up.

I develop using dilution H (1:63) for 15 minutes and that gives me a quite dense neg that I then print hard.

I get my dilution info from this page and it says dilution B is 1:31 not 1:7 as you say. How are you mixing up? One shot? Are you using the 'Euro' version?

I don't think Im using the US version or the Euro version since it's 1:7 for dilution B base on the label for the bottle. According to the kodak pdf here http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/j24/j24.pdf , it seems I'm using the stock solution (on the first table on page 2 where dilution b is ratio 1:7, this is as the same as the ratio listed on the plastic bottle). So I'm not sure what dilution H would be for me but I do know that Dilution B for you and Dilution B for my version works the same because the concentrate for my version is either weaker or stronger.

NB23 · Feb 8, 2012

H is double Dilution B. In your case it would be 1:14 or so.

perkeleellinen · Feb 8, 2012

Aha, so you made a 'stock' solution and from that diluted it down to make a 'working' solution?

Can I encourage you to make a one-shot solution and try that and see if you have more luck? Get a syringe and make up a 1:31 solution as indicated in the link above. Try it and see.

dreamingartemis · Feb 8, 2012

NB23 said:
H is double Dilution B. In your case it would be 1:14 or so.

Okay, I'll give it another go, should have noted something was wrong when the negs game out so thick but then I don't think I should judge a neg by it's thickness (lame joke...)

dreamingartemis · Feb 8, 2012

perkeleellinen said:
Aha, so you made a 'stock' solution and from that diluted it down to make a 'working' solution?

Can I encourage you to make a one-shot solution and try that and see if you have more luck? Get a syringe and make up a 1:31 solution as indicated in the link above. Try it and see.

I'm not sure what you mean because I just bought the bottle from the shop in Singapore (I'm in Malaysia) and it was already like that with all the labels and etc. I'm assuming the factory or supplier mixed it up to stock solution then sold it to us. Which is kinda a rip off if that is indeed the case

perkeleellinen · Feb 8, 2012

Oh, that's odd. So you've got an already mixed up stock version of HC110? I'm going to have to let more experienced HC110 users advise on the best way forward.

dreamingartemis · Feb 8, 2012

perkeleellinen said:
Oh, that's odd. So you've got an already mixed up stock version of HC110? I'm going to have to let more experienced HC110 users advise on the best way forward.

Thanks but I think looking from that website, I need to find some way to double my development time. I'll follow (there was a url link here which no longer exists)'s advice and just simply double up dilution B for ten minutes.

perkeleellinen · Feb 8, 2012

Let us know how you get on.

Just to clarify, my version (US) is very thick like syrup or runny honey. It's sticky and difficult to get off stuff it touches. Is your version like that or more liquid?

dreamingartemis · Feb 8, 2012

perkeleellinen said:
Let us know how you get on.

Just to clarify, my version (US) is very thick like syrup or runny honey. It's sticky and difficult to get off stuff it touches. Is your version like that or more liquid?

It's more liquid, it's not slimy more like diluted honey and I can easily suck it up with a syringe and easily clean it off without much effort. So I guess that answers why all the websites list ratios different from mine. Also you mentioned 15 minutes, why 15? shouldn't it be ten minute? May I also know your agitation method? mine is

1. For the first minutes use the screw thingy to turn the film (I'm using paterson tanks).
2. Then use inversion every 30 seconds until development time finishes.

I use this same method for stop bath and fixer.

perkeleellinen · Feb 8, 2012

dreamingartemis said:
why 15? shouldn't it be ten minute?

Yes, it should be ten for a normal neg. I develop longer because that produces the sort of negative I like to print with. Just personal taste - I did a bit of testing before settling on this time. I agitate continuously for the first minute and then ten seconds every subsequent minute - probably three inversions.

mgb74 · Feb 8, 2012

Good info on HC-110 (dilutions, etc) here: http://www.covingtoninnovations.com/hc110/ though note the disclaimer that it's no longer being updated. Unfortunately, no data for Neopan.

Thomas Bertilsson · Feb 8, 2012

If you didn't get enough shadow detail, you did not expose enough.

If contrast was 'out of control' (I interpret this to mean that contrast is much too high), you developed for too long.

Cure: Expose more. Develop less, which is hard to do at Dilution B, which is where Dilution H comes in handy, which is twice the dilution of Dilution B. Similarly, a decent starting point is to double the time of Dilution B, but since you said you have too much contrast, I would reduce that from 10 minutes to 8 minutes, and see if those negatives print better.

Please remember: Developing times on the chemistry boxes are recommendations, not cast in stone and impossible to change. You adjust the exposure and development time to get what prints well in your darkroom, and that is something that every photographer has to learn.

dreamingartemis said:
I know this has been asked but usually the thread devolves into Rodinal, Xtol and some other brand. I've used HCC-110 for HP5+ and it looks okay but when I tried it with Neopan 400 at 5 minutes with Dilution B, it looks like total crap (and this was after I developed 8 rolls with ). Contrast is wildy out of control and the sharpness looks bad along with shadow details.

Though it could be due to my scanner when I prescan to get a feel what the negs would look if I printed them.

Here is a run down of what I used and done

1. Development using HCC-110 at Dilution B (1:7) at 5 minutes 20 celcius
2. Stop bath with distilled vinegar at 1:9 for one minutes at 20 celcius (cannot find any stop bath indicator here so I improvided)
3. Ilford rapid fixer at 1:4 for 5 minutes as well, all same temp.

Am I doing something wrong? The negs come out looking rather thick. I have heaps of this film which I managed to buy cheap (because they were on sale and no where near their expiry date yet). I only have HCC-110 for now since I first tried it with my HP5+ and Pan F which works well but I've seen some incredible results by other people with neopan and thought I give it a go...

pmargolis · Feb 8, 2012

Neopan 400 in HC110 has been one of my favorite combinations for many years. I usually rate the film at an EI of 320 and develop in the 1:63 dilution -- so-called Dilution H -- of "syrup" to New York City tap water for 10-11 minutes at 70 degrees. That works out to 1/2 ounce of syrup in 32 oz. of water for a 4-reel Nikor stainless steel tank. While other factors may affect your results (local water, agitation, method of pouring developer in/out of tank, for example) you should be in the right general ball park with this procedure. The rest of your processing steps seem fine.
Good luck, Paul

QUOTE=dreamingartemis;1298973]I know this has been asked but usually the thread devolves into Rodinal, Xtol and some other brand. I've used HCC-110 for HP5+ and it looks okay but when I tried it with Neopan 400 at 5 minutes with Dilution B, it looks like total crap (and this was after I developed 8 rolls with ). Contrast is wildy out of control and the sharpness looks bad along with shadow details.

Though it could be due to my scanner when I prescan to get a feel what the negs would look if I printed them.

Here is a run down of what I used and done

1. Development using HCC-110 at Dilution B (1:7) at 5 minutes 20 celcius
2. Stop bath with distilled vinegar at 1:9 for one minutes at 20 celcius (cannot find any stop bath indicator here so I improvided)
3. Ilford rapid fixer at 1:4 for 5 minutes as well, all same temp.

Am I doing something wrong? The negs come out looking rather thick. I have heaps of this film which I managed to buy cheap (because they were on sale and no where near their expiry date yet). I only have HCC-110 for now since I first tried it with my HP5+ and Pan F which works well but I've seen some incredible results by other people with neopan and thought I give it a go...[/QUOTE]

ParkerSmithPhoto · Feb 8, 2012

dreamingartemis said:
Am I doing something wrong? The negs come out looking rather thick.

The best negative for scanning is on the thin side, which is totally opposite of what you need for silver printing. Diafine is great if you area using a scan and print workflow.

MattKing · Feb 8, 2012

I have a feeling that we have a problem with communication here.

To the OP, does your bottle look something like the one pictured here.

In particular, does it indicate that it is to make 2 US Gallons.

If so, then I would be willing to bet that you overlooked the instruction to make a stock solution first, before diluting that stock solution 1 +7 (for dilution B). The stock solution is made up by dumping the entire 16 ounce HC110 bottle into a larger, 64 ounce container and then filling the container with water. That results in an initial dilution of 1 + 3.

If you do the math, it turns out that if you dilute the stock solution 1 + 7, what you end up with is a working solution of 1 + 31, or expressed differently, in 32 parts of working solution, you have one part concentrate, and 31 parts water.

The stock solution method has some advantages (ease of handling, accuracy of measurement), but it only really make sense if you process fairly high volumes of film. Otherwise, the stock solution tends to go bad before you use it up (whereas the concentrate that comes from the manufacturer seems to last forever).

So, as a result, most of us here tend to work straight from the concentrate. We mix a small (around 6-10 ml) of concentrate with the required amount of water, and work from there. We add 31 parts of water to each part of concentrate, and end up with dilution B. As an example, to make 320 ml of working solution, we add 10 ml of concentrate to 310 ml of water.

If you mixed concentrate with water 1 + 7, then:

1) your developer was 4 times regular strength (no wonder your negatives were dense!); and
2) instead of being reasonable, your per roll cost of using HC110 is very expensive .

Hope this helps!

PS, in case you were wondering where the ratios come from, think of the US system where each quart of liquid is also 32 ounces
PPS, HC110 dilution H is 1 part concentrate plus 63 parts water.
PPPS, you have to be very careful with dilution H if you use small tanks - you need a certain minimum amount of concentrate in the tank no matter what the dilution - Kodak's capacity information works out to about 6 ml per roll, although others work with less

Thomas Bertilsson · Feb 8, 2012

Matt,

This is from the Covington Innovations web site for HC-110 developer:

"Note: In Europe, HC-110 is also sold in 500-mL bottles as a less concentrated syrup which you dilute 1:9 to make dilution B. If you are using that product (Kodak CAT 500 1466), follow the instructions for the European concentrate, not those for the syrup. Although the European type of HC-110 is sold in England, there does not seem to be an English data sheet for it. Full-strength syrup is also sold in Europe so make sure you know which one you have."
Source: http://www.covingtoninnovations.com/hc110/index.html

If the OP has the HC-110 of Europe and mixed it 1:7 as opposed to 1:9, the contrast 'out of control' is explained by the higher concentration of developer in the mix.

- Thomas

MattKing · Feb 8, 2012

Hi Thomas:

That is why I included the picture .

I also think that the OP's reference to "1:7" on the bottle means that it is the US version.

Sheldon · Feb 8, 2012

This is my first post and thought I would throw in my 2 cents worth. I'm fairly new to developing, but Ive been using HC-110 and mix it to (1+49). For Neopan 400, my development time is 7 min and 15 sec.

dreamingartemis · Feb 8, 2012

mgb74 said:
Good info on HC-110 (dilutions, etc) here: http://www.covingtoninnovations.com/hc110/ though note the disclaimer that it's no longer being updated. Unfortunately, no data for Neopan.

I know, so all I have is the massive dev chart website.

dreamingartemis · Feb 8, 2012

Thomas Bertilsson said:
If you didn't get enough shadow detail, you did not expose enough.

If contrast was 'out of control' (I interpret this to mean that contrast is much too high), you developed for too long.

Cure: Expose more. Develop less, which is hard to do at Dilution B, which is where Dilution H comes in handy, which is twice the dilution of Dilution B. Similarly, a decent starting point is to double the time of Dilution B, but since you said you have too much contrast, I would reduce that from 10 minutes to 8 minutes, and see if those negatives print better.

Please remember: Developing times on the chemistry boxes are recommendations, not cast in stone and impossible to change. You adjust the exposure and development time to get what prints well in your darkroom, and that is something that every photographer has to learn.

I'll give a go in my next batch of film

dreamingartemis · Feb 8, 2012

pmargolis said:
Neopan 400 in HC110 has been one of my favorite combinations for many years. I usually rate the film at an EI of 320 and develop in the 1:63 dilution -- so-called Dilution H -- of "syrup" to New York City tap water for 10-11 minutes at 70 degrees. That works out to 1/2 ounce of syrup in 32 oz. of water for a 4-reel Nikor stainless steel tank. While other factors may affect your results (local water, agitation, method of pouring developer in/out of tank, for example) you should be in the right general ball park with this procedure. The rest of your processing steps seem fine.
Good luck, Paul

QUOTE=dreamingartemis;1298973]I know this has been asked but usually the thread devolves into Rodinal, Xtol and some other brand. I've used HCC-110 for HP5+ and it looks okay but when I tried it with Neopan 400 at 5 minutes with Dilution B, it looks like total crap (and this was after I developed 8 rolls with ). Contrast is wildy out of control and the sharpness looks bad along with shadow details.

Though it could be due to my scanner when I prescan to get a feel what the negs would look if I printed them.

Here is a run down of what I used and done

1. Development using HCC-110 at Dilution B (1:7) at 5 minutes 20 celcius
2. Stop bath with distilled vinegar at 1:9 for one minutes at 20 celcius (cannot find any stop bath indicator here so I improvided)
3. Ilford rapid fixer at 1:4 for 5 minutes as well, all same temp.

Am I doing something wrong? The negs come out looking rather thick. I have heaps of this film which I managed to buy cheap (because they were on sale and no where near their expiry date yet). I only have HCC-110 for now since I first tried it with my HP5+ and Pan F which works well but I've seen some incredible results by other people with neopan and thought I give it a go...

[/QUOTE]

Thanks! I didn't know about Dilution H until now, I'll give it a go next! As yes the joys of trial and error

dreamingartemis · Feb 8, 2012

Actually, it looks like that BUT the bottle instead is totally clear! You can see the color of the liquid and the liquid is rather "liquid" and not honey like at all. I'm right now at work so I'll look again at the label to see if I needed to mix it to 1:3 first! Before mixing it to 1:7! If that is indeed the case then the jokes on me

MattKing said:
I have a feeling that we have a problem with communication here.

To the OP, does your bottle look something like the one pictured here.

In particular, does it indicate that it is to make 2 US Gallons.

If so, then I would be willing to bet that you overlooked the instruction to make a stock solution first, before diluting that stock solution 1 +7 (for dilution B). The stock solution is made up by dumping the entire 16 ounce HC110 bottle into a larger, 64 ounce container and then filling the container with water. That results in an initial dilution of 1 + 3.

If you do the math, it turns out that if you dilute the stock solution 1 + 7, what you end up with is a working solution of 1 + 31, or expressed differently, in 32 parts of working solution, you have one part concentrate, and 31 parts water.

The stock solution method has some advantages (ease of handling, accuracy of measurement), but it only really make sense if you process fairly high volumes of film. Otherwise, the stock solution tends to go bad before you use it up (whereas the concentrate that comes from the manufacturer seems to last forever).

So, as a result, most of us here tend to work straight from the concentrate. We mix a small (around 6-10 ml) of concentrate with the required amount of water, and work from there. We add 31 parts of water to each part of concentrate, and end up with dilution B. As an example, to make 320 ml of working solution, we add 10 ml of concentrate to 310 ml of water.

If you mixed concentrate with water 1 + 7, then:

1) your developer was 4 times regular strength (no wonder your negatives were dense!); and
2) instead of being reasonable, your per roll cost of using HC110 is very expensive .

Hope this helps!

PS, in case you were wondering where the ratios come from, think of the US system where each quart of liquid is also 32 ounces
PPS, HC110 dilution H is 1 part concentrate plus 63 parts water.
PPPS, you have to be very careful with dilution H if you use small tanks - you need a certain minimum amount of concentrate in the tank no matter what the dilution - Kodak's capacity information works out to about 6 ml per roll, although others work with less

dreamingartemis · Feb 8, 2012

Thomas Bertilsson said:
Matt,

This is from the Covington Innovations web site for HC-110 developer:

"Note: In Europe, HC-110 is also sold in 500-mL bottles as a less concentrated syrup which you dilute 1:9 to make dilution B. If you are using that product (Kodak CAT 500 1466), follow the instructions for the European concentrate, not those for the syrup. Although the European type of HC-110 is sold in England, there does not seem to be an English data sheet for it. Full-strength syrup is also sold in Europe so make sure you know which one you have."
Source: http://www.covingtoninnovations.com/hc110/index.html

If the OP has the HC-110 of Europe and mixed it 1:7 as opposed to 1:9, the contrast 'out of control' is explained by the higher concentration of developer in the mix.

- Thomas

Well, I'm not sure how to tell if the possible is the europe version because on the label of the bottle it's indicated that for dilution b, use 1:7. And all the other dilution correspond with the information in the kodak HCC-110 data sheet for working solution......I think the factory here took the concentrate and mixed it to working solution and the sold it in bottles.

HCC-110 with Fujifilm Neopan 400

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