HC-110; Your Favorite Dilution?

[NB23]

Congratulations!

Thank you!

 

[BetterSense]

I don't use letters. A, B, C, what the heck does that mean?

I use 50:1; the same as I use for Rodinal.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

250/47 < 6 ml of syrup.

I have developed negatives using HC-110 and 2ml syrup per roll. I got very nice negatives.

If someone uses 5ml per roll instead of 6ml, as long as they are consistent, has anybody here making recommendations actually tested to see whether it works or not?
I have, and 5ml per roll works fine, but it's recommended to stay consistent and do that every single time. Consistency is everything.

5ml per roll alleviates a lot of head aches, because simple 1:50 dilution can be used instead of the otherwise confusing Kodak mixing instructions. You can, for example, develop a single roll of 35mm film in a tank that takes only 250ml solution. Of course Dilution E works fine here too, but who here actually thinks 1:47 and 1:50 makes any sort of practical and meaningful difference?

 

[newtorf]

I used a 16oz (480ml) stainless steel tank. It can take two 35mm reels, and up to 500ml developer. Here is a list of dilutions I've used so far:

Dil B, dilute 15ml syrup to 480ml developer.
Dil D, dilute 12.5ml syrup 500ml developer.
Dil E, dilute 10ml syrup to 480ml developer.
Dil H, dilute 7.5ml syrup to 480ml developer.

In the case of Dil E and H, the actual syrup is short of Kodak recommended 6ml syrup per roll. But they worked just fine.

 

[peter k.]

Consistency is everything.

Yup...
Love Hc-110 in dilution H...

BTW, mostly sheet film of various sizes, in an old Fink-Roselieve day light tanks (who uses those anymore? ... me) that can be adjusted from 4x5 width, down. Very versatile! So I check on how much solution covers the negatives, and make a note and work out the dilution needed for that film size. No waste. You can do the same for roll film, in a sealed container. Not using any more volume, or syrup, (being sure the negatives will be immersed in enough developer when you agitate), then necessary.

 

[DWThomas]

Back circa 2004 when I first started getting back into B&W, the famous Covington site on HC110 said you needed 3 ml per film, I believe it has since changed to say 6. And I have no idea when/what/why/how that transition occurred.

I use dilution H and have determined 425 ml is sufficient for one roll of 120, bringing it about 1/4 inch above the reel, but not full. I'm of the opinion full degrades the agitation process. So I use 6.7 ml in water to make 425 and it works! I suppose I would be short of developer in my single roll 35 mm tank, but my 35 mm shooting is one roll a year for Argus Day!

I have used dilution E on some IR films and in tray processing 4x5 sheets; a compromise between developer consumption and developing time. All in all, I think consistency is more important than the exact numbers.

 

[miha]

Thomas, Kodak says that one litre of HC-110 develops 5 8x10 sheets of film when dilution B (1+31) is used. One 8x10 sheet equals 1 roll of 135 film, 36 exp. You get 32 litres of working solution at that dilution *5 rolls = 160 rolls per litre of concentrate: 1000 ml/160 rolls = 6.25 of syrup per roll. My developer of choice is Ilfotec HC which is said to be similar to HC-110 and I have never used less than that (my 1 litre tank can develop 4 135 rolls at once). I try to stick with the manufacturer's recommendations. But as you say 5 or 6 should't make a difference.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Thomas, Kodak says that one litre of HC-110 develops 5 8x10 sheets of film when dilution B (1+31) is used. One 8x10 sheet equals 1 roll of 135 film, 36 exp. You get 32 litres of working solution at that dilution *5 rolls = 160 rolls per litre of concentrate: 1000 ml/160 rolls = 6.25 of syrup per roll. My developer of choice is Ilfotec HC which is said to be similar to HC-110 and I have never used less than that (my 1 litre tank can develop 4 135 rolls at once). I try to stick with the manufacturer's recommendations. But as you say 5 or 6 should't make a difference.

Well, I see where you're coming from, and it is not a bad idea to follow manufacturer instructions. But it's also good to question them, and wonder about their motives. Their prerogative is mainly to sell product. HC-110 is extremely concentrated. If you only used 2ml of concentrate per film (which I have done with great results), then they'd only sell one third as much of it as when everybody does it by the book. Worth pondering.

I say you CAN develop film using 5ml per film (8x10 sheet or 120 roll or 36exp 135 equivalent), but it's not guaranteed that developing times will be the same as for 6ml per film. Do your own testing to arrive at a contrast level that works for your work flow, which you should be doing anyway.
For 120 film it's not even a big deal, because of the amount of working solution you need to submerge one single film is almost twice as much as for 135.

 

[Pioneer]

For 120 film it's not even a big deal, because of the amount of working solution you need to submerge one single film is almost twice as much as for 135.

Not necessarily Tom. I actually use 170ml of solution in my Jobo tank to submerge a roll of 120 and 270ml to submerge a roll of 135 when I use continuous agitation. Of course I develop two rolls of 135 because the reels can be collapsed but the amount of solution is less.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Not necessarily Tom. I actually use 170ml of solution in my Jobo tank to submerge a roll of 120 and 270ml to submerge a roll of 135 when I use continuous agitation. Of course I develop two rolls of 135 because the reels can be collapsed but the amount of solution is less.

That's true. I didn't consider all methods of developing, only those I'm familiar with (standard SS tanks and Paterson).

 

[K-G]

Since about a year I have also started to use the E dilution for HC-110 together with Ilford HP5+ and the results are excelent. J Brunner , one of our dear moderators , has written an article on dilute HC-110 . It is well Worth Reading.
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

For those few who don't have the link to the Covington's web page, here it is.
http://www.covingtoninnovations.com/hc110/

If these two sites don't give you all you need to know about HC-110 , then switch to another developer.

Karl-Gustaf

 

[MattKing]

Thomas:

The capacity figures (~6 ml per roll) indicated by Kodak are most likely very conservative. Remember, however, that HC-110 is designed to be usable in a whole bunch of situations, including high volume commercial labs.

The developer's actual capacity (in number of rolls per liter) will vary with the type of images on the negatives. So Kodak would most likely recommend something that would be enough to deal with a bunch of over-exposed negatives of high key scenes (Minnesota snow in the winter?).

Once in a while I find myself in a situation where I want to develop four 120 rolls in my Paterson tank - capacity 1 litre. I use the 1 + 49 dilution. Before I start, I think about what I shot. If there were a variety of scenes, with an expected range of tones, I figure I'm fine. If, however, I had four rolls shot in bright fog or snow scenes, I probably would be extra cautious and divide the film into two runs.

By the way, for those who use less than 6 ml syrup per roll, are you sure that the developer isn't at least partially exhausting itself before you are finished?

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Thomas:

The capacity figures (~6 ml per roll) indicated by Kodak are most likely very conservative. Remember, however, that HC-110 is designed to be usable in a whole bunch of situations, including high volume commercial labs.

The developer's actual capacity (in number of rolls per liter) will vary with the type of images on the negatives. So Kodak would most likely recommend something that would be enough to deal with a bunch of over-exposed negatives of high key scenes (Minnesota snow in the winter?).

Once in a while I find myself in a situation where I want to develop four 120 rolls in my Paterson tank - capacity 1 litre. I use the 1 + 49 dilution. Before I start, I think about what I shot. If there were a variety of scenes, with an expected range of tones, I figure I'm fine. If, however, I had four rolls shot in bright fog or snow scenes, I probably would be extra cautious and divide the film into two runs.

By the way, for those who use less than 6 ml syrup per roll, are you sure that the developer isn't at least partially exhausting itself before you are finished?

I see what you mean, Matt. What you say is true for any developer, however, at any dilution. A negative with lots of highlights will require more developer activity in those areas, relatively changing how the developer works compared to areas of less exposure. I personally would not worry much about it, as long as you are consistent with how you develop your film.

If the activity in developer with less than 6ml of concentrate per roll is slightly less, then why does it matter as long as they are consistent? You want to know what to expect, and adjust developing time to achieve the negative contrast you need, be it low or high contrast lighting. Right?

 

[MattKing]

I see what you mean, Matt. What you say is true for any developer, however, at any dilution. A negative with lots of highlights will require more developer activity in those areas, relatively changing how the developer works compared to areas of less exposure. I personally would not worry much about it, as long as you are consistent with how you develop your film.

If the activity in developer with less than 6ml of concentrate per roll is slightly less, then why does it matter as long as they are consistent? You want to know what to expect, and adjust developing time to achieve the negative contrast you need, be it low or high contrast lighting. Right?

Not quite Thomas, because partially exhausted developer will respond differently to a dense negative than it will to a negative of average density, and increasing the developing time will have a different affect with partially exhausted developer than it will with developer that still has reserve capacity.

Having extra chemical capacity in your "soup" means that you most likely won't have to worry about issues like exhaustion or whether dense negatives will respond differently, depending on what is on the other rolls in your tank.

 

[frank]

HC 110, 100:1 dilution, semi stand, is what I do with triX and hp5. One doesn't need 6ml per roll. I have a 5 roll tank of 1500cc. I use 15ml of HC 110 in this. So, 3ml per roll. Works great for me.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Having extra chemical capacity in your "soup" means that you most likely won't have to worry about issues like exhaustion or whether dense negatives will respond differently, depending on what is on the other rolls in your tank.

Underlined by me.

I think you are theorizing, and not really knowing for sure. The proof is in the pudding, as they say. If you see that rolls of film with more exposure affect film developing to such a degree that you must use a more concentrated working solution, then go ahead and do so. To me it sounds a little bit like splitting hairs and worry about things that are fairly insignificant in the grand scheme of things. Is what you're talking about really that big of a deal?

At 2ml concentrate per film I still got 'normal' results, as far as I am able to judge them, anyway. They printed on my normal paper in my normal paper developer, with no more difficulty than other negatives. You're welcome to draw your own conclusions.

 

[MattKing]

Underlined by me.

I think you are theorizing, and not really knowing for sure. The proof is in the pudding, as they say. If you see that rolls of film with more exposure affect film developing to such a degree that you must use a more concentrated working solution, then go ahead and do so. To me it sounds a little bit like splitting hairs and worry about things that are fairly insignificant in the grand scheme of things. Is what you're talking about really that big of a deal?

At 2ml concentrate per film I still got 'normal' results, as far as I am able to judge them, anyway. They printed on my normal paper in my normal paper developer, with no more difficulty than other negatives. You're welcome to draw your own conclusions.

It is true that I come to this with the mindset of one who used to run a colour print processing machine, including running regular Kodak control strips and checking them with densitometers.

So I may be unnecessarily cautious.

But I can tell you that if you do have control systems that are sensitive, you can really see how some customers' prints can affect the processing of other customer's prints later in the day.

The 6 ml limit was most likely specified by Kodak because it ensured consistent results in those processing runs that were monitored using control strips and densitometers.

I think of the 6 ml limit as like a pH buffer - it keeps you away from problems.

I'm never going to tell you that you shouldn't use 2 ml. It may be that any developer exhaustion effects that you may be experiencing (if any) are actually contributing to your obtaining the results you like.

For someone who is new to this, I would however suggest that they be cautious, and follow the manufacturer's recommendations.

 

[jspillane]

I tried multiple dilutions, and finally settled on one-shot development with dilution H. Works great with many films... I mostly use it on Acros and HP5+, great and consistent results with both emulsions. Easy and economical.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

It is true that I come to this with the mindset of one who used to run a colour print processing machine, including running regular Kodak control strips and checking them with densitometers.

So I may be unnecessarily cautious.

But I can tell you that if you do have control systems that are sensitive, you can really see how some customers' prints can affect the processing of other customer's prints later in the day.

The 6 ml limit was most likely specified by Kodak because it ensured consistent results in those processing runs that were monitored using control strips and densitometers.

I think of the 6 ml limit as like a pH buffer - it keeps you away from problems.

I'm never going to tell you that you shouldn't use 2 ml. It may be that any developer exhaustion effects that you may be experiencing (if any) are actually contributing to your obtaining the results you like.

For someone who is new to this, I would however suggest that they be cautious, and follow the manufacturer's recommendations.

Gotcha. I'm just a big fan of questioning convention and seek things out for myself. I know who I can trust by experience, and you usually offer such good advice, Matt, that I'm by now naturally inclined to listen to you.

My sometimes seemingly endless argumentation against conventionally known concepts is that I want to try to push people to look and see for themselves. No matter how good the recommendations from others are, you STILL have to go try it for yourself, in order to get developing times that work for whatever their individual work flow and requirements are.

And, it isn't until you break the 'rules' that you find out what exists beyond the limits. I have learned so much by pushing the envelope and going beyond, like how about exposing Tri-X at 50 and over-develop it, only to find out that the prints can have a very interesting look that is entirely usable? How about using 2ml of HC-110 per film, only to find out that the negatives are largely normal compared to those developed with normal dilution? If you only ever do things by the book then you miss a lot of fun AND a lot of possibilities for different and creative results. And you learn quickly what a big impact technique has on the results, much more than individual materials. That's powerful.

I don't throw stuff out there just to be obnoxious. I do it for a reason.

You are right, though, that somebody beginning film developing might do very well with simply following the manufacturer recommendations, just to insure usable results later on. I'm on board with that for sure. You have to be able to understand what 'normal' is before you can understand what isn't.

 

[peter k.]

Tom & Matt I have really enjoyed the interchange between the two of you.. thank you!

I enjoy the creative aspect of film photography, especially sheet film, and think I'll get a little more creative with the aspect of my film developing in Toms direction. But believe one has to start in Matt's corner, until one gets familiar with the groves and moves of oneself and how we do it, before we can take down the fences, and see who far and if will fly.

 

[DWThomas]

If I were the Famous Yellow Box folks, I suppose I would probably figure out how much developer concentrate it took to reduce every last molecule of silver salt to metallic silver for 80 square inches of film and specify that. It would mean a customer could never run out of capacity (and they'd sell more developer). In the real world, unless one's obsessive thing is photographing bugs on white walls from a distance of ten feet, I doubt one would be close to testing the limits. I normally use 1+63 as a one shot and I figure for my random usage, even if I am nudging the limits, I've likely learned to compensate the effects.

 

[Denverdad]

Although dilution H has been my most common and my "go-to" dilution for ordinary developments, if I had to pick a favorite then I would have to go with dilution A. That is because I use it only for developing found film, which is just so much fun to do. My process for this involves reduced temperatures (as low as 40F) which explains how the development times still tend to come out in a usable range. I can tell you that the larger volumes required for "A" just seem wrong at first, especially when you are accustomed to much higher dilutions.

 

[kintatsu]

My personal favorite is Dilution H. I've tried E and B, but love the way H is workable. It's not official, but works wonders for me. For FP4+ at EI125, single sheets in a tray, 9 minutes with 1 minute initial agitation, and 1 lift of the tray every 10 seconds thereafter is perfect.

This is my favorite developer, followed closely by Ultrafin and Ultrafin Plus.

 

[Richard S. (rich815)]

Dilution B is Best. And Dilution E is Excellent. H is very good too, in Chinese it's Dilution Hen Hao.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Dilution B is Best. And Dilution E is Excellent. H is very good too, in Chinese it's Dilution Hen Hao.

None of those are best, Richard. 1+59 is the one.