HC 110 Question

[Geoffsco]

I'm using HC 110 for the first time, and am unsure about working solutions.

If I'm using dilution B, I mix a stock solution 1:7.

Then, when I process the film, is it correct that I then mix the prepared dilution B 1:31?

Thanks,
Geoff

 

[Christopher Walrath]

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry9000/4.6.0.167 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/102 UP.Link/6.3.0.0.0)

If I were you (and I was) I would simply mix from the syrup your working solution as needed. Simpler to keep track of and not much more prep time. If using Dil B, for example, just start with 250 cc of 20C water, add 15 cc of HC syrup, then add 20C water to make 500 cc. That's for pint. Convert for your measure.

It just seems easier and simpler to mix as needed. Less worry of exhaustion due to a dry spell or remember when you batched it in the first place.

 

[David Brown]

I'm using HC 110 for the first time, and am unsure about working solutions.

If I'm using dilution B, I mix a stock solution 1:7.

Then, when I process the film, is it correct that I then mix the prepared dilution B 1:31?

Thanks,
Geoff

No.

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/j24/j24.pdf

It has always been a mystery to me why Kodak publishes such confusing instructions for this product. Dilution B is 1:31 in the end. In other words, 1 ounce of syrup (forget "stock solution") and 31 ounces make up a quart of Dil B.

"Stock" is 1:3. Then the stock would be further diluted 1:7 for "working" strength. This gives 1:31.

1:3 + 1:7 = 1:31.

1:3 = 1/4.
1:7 = 1/8.
1;31 = 1/32.

1/4 * 1/8 = 1/32. See? It's just math ...

Just use the table for "Preparing Working Solutions from Concentrate".

 

[Louis Nargi]

I'v been using HC110 for years, I mix the concentrate according to the label then I mix from that 1-7 in my case my tank for 35mm and 6x6 I mix 2oz of hc110 to 14oz of water and develop for 5min 30sec for6x6 6min30sec for 35mm.This is 1 to 7 from stock. this works great for me.

 

[Anscojohn]

Mix the goop with the needed water to make the working solution. As the others have stated above, this simplifies life. You might consider getting one of those plastic dosage syringe-type doohickies used for giving liquid meds to babies: helps measuring the goop accurately.

 

[fschifano]

Yep, the only problem with mixing HC-110 directly from the thick syrup as it is supplied is the viscosity. The stuff is really think and can be difficult, but not impossible to draw up into a syringe. The dosing syringes sold for dispensing liquid medicines to babies is usually only 5 ml, and that's a little too small. I use a syringe with a capacity of 25 ml. You'll need a piece of plastic tubing attached to the pointy end to use as an extension, otherwise you wind up immersing the syringe into the goop and that makes a mess. Do not try to use a needle. It's too fine and won't work.

 

[c.w.]

Yep, the only problem with mixing HC-110 directly from the thick syrup as it is supplied is the viscosity. The stuff is really think and can be difficult, but not impossible to draw up into a syringe. The dosing syringes sold for dispensing liquid medicines to babies is usually only 5 ml, and that's a little too small. I use a syringe with a capacity of 25 ml. You'll need a piece of plastic tubing attached to the pointy end to use as an extension, otherwise you wind up immersing the syringe into the goop and that makes a mess. Do not try to use a needle. It's too fine and won't work.

I actually use a syringe for injecting sauce into meat that i found, but it's a little wonky. I was thinking i might head to the farm supply store and check out the vetrinary syringes, i remember them having really wide "needles".

 

[David William White]

I usually do two 120's or three 135's in 1 litre of working solution. I pour 32ml of syrup into a small graduated cylinder and rinse it out three or four times while making up my working solution. I did the stock-to-working thing just once then I went straight to the syrup -- for simplicity.

 

[George Collier]

I too use a syringe for Rodinal, but another way to measure HC110 without a syringe is to use a narrow graduate, something you are comfortable measuring to the cc. I use one that holds 25cc's and is about 8" tall, so a cc is close to 10mm in length. I use it 1:60, so 7cc of syrup makes 420 of working, enough to comfortably cover a 120 roll in my tank.
To measure, I pour off some of the distilled water from the measured 420cc, into the graduate first, to an even line, leaving room for the syrup. Then I add the syrup to the desired amount (the syrup pours well from the Kodak bottle). The initial water in graduate dilutes the syrup somewhat and makes it easier to pour back out of the graduate. Then I flush the graduate back and forth with the larger container till I get it all. The trick is to get a small enough graduate.

 

[Rolleijoe]

Since my Rodinal is 1:50, my HC-110 is also 1:50 for 10 min at 20° C. Straight from the "syrup", no muss/no fuss. Excellent results.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

"Stock" is 1:3. Then the stock would be further diluted 1:7 for "working" strength. This gives 1:31.

1:3 + 1:7 = 1:31.

How's your multiplication? That would be 1:21. 3x7 = 21, not 31.

Either way. There are two versions of this HC-110. One for Europe, which is more dilute than the one in the US. I think we're assuming you're in the US.

It's easiest to mix it directly from the concentrate. You can vary the dilution to you liking, by the way. So 1:50 or 1:25 is perfectly fine, but you will likely have to figure out your developing times on your own (which you probably should do anyway).
Get a 10ml syringe from your apothecary / pharmacist and it's easy to extract the syrup in a precise manner. Mix it well with water and go.

Kodak's instructions for HC-110 really make no sense.

 

[MattKing]

How's your multiplication? That would be 1:21. 3x7 = 21, not 31.

Kodak's instructions for HC-110 really make no sense.

Actually, Thomas 1:3 results in 4 parts of stock, and then the resulting 4 parts are diluted 1:7, resulting in 32 sub-parts of working solution.

In other words, you get 32 ounces (a US quart) of working solution if you start out with one ounce of concentrate and dilute it in two stages 1:31.

The HC110 instructions make much more sense if you realize that:

1) the first stage of dilution is designed to give you stock solution in a (US convenient) 1/2 gallon (64 ounce) container, with no issues concerning viscosity or wasted concentrate;
2) the second stage of dilution (1:7) is performed using measurements that are easy for the amateur darkroom worker to work with with all necessary accuracy; and
3) there is a built in assumption that the amateur darkroom worker will be able to use up the 64 ounce container of stock solution (enough to develop about 64 rolls in dilution B) before it goes bad.

It is the assumption in #3 above that falls down most frequently for me.

Matt

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

I stand corrected. And proved my own point that the instructions are confusing... Thanks, Matt.

 

[Don Wallace]

I also use a narrow graduate and over the last few years have become quite good at pouring a very thin dribble. If you hit the sides of the graduate, you need to wait until it all drains down.

I also decant the syrup into smaller bottles so it won't oxidize. I picked up half a dozen small brown medicine bottles at the drugstore and fill them right to the brim with the syrup. It is also easier to pour from them rather than the large bottle.

Be careful that you have the minimum amount of syrup required per square inch of film. If I recall correctly (I don't have my notes in front of me), one sheet of 8x10 requires 12 or 12.5 ml syrup. With large dilutions, the volume of developer can get pretty big, pretty quickly

 

[gainer]

The syrup has a longer shelf life than the recommended stock solution.

You can get at most pharmacies a syringe with plunger graduated in ml up to 10, which comes with a tapered plug. Use this as the cap for the original bottle of syrup. Invert the bottle, suck the syrup out, transfer to your mixing pot. You'll see how it works when you get the syringe.

 

[MattKing]

Don:

The minimum amount of syrup is less than 12 ml - opinions I've seen vary between 3 ml and 6 ml.

I've recently been experimenting with transferring the concentrate to one of those push-pump liquid soap dispensers - the sort one might use by the kitchen or bathroom sink.

They work reasonably well, but they don't lock closed without wasting some concentrate.

What I would really like is a pump that could be used to replace the lid on the HC110 bottle itself, with a built in lock that prevents unintended discharge or leaks.

I've looked at some internet sources such as this:

Dead Link Removed

The minimum quantity of 30,000 doesn't seem all that practical and there is no reference to a lock. Anyone know of a better source?

Matt

 

[Don Wallace]

Matt, I have heard a wide range of opinions on this too. Here is how I arrived at this conclusion. You guys follow along and see if this makes sense. I would love it if I were wrong!

Take a look at the Kodak pdf on HC-110:

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/j24/j24.pdf

Toward the bottom, it says that the capacity of 1 litre of dilution F is 1 sheet of 8x10. Dilution F is 1:79, or 80 parts in total. If you divide 1 litre by 80, you get 12.5 ml. So one sheet of 8x10 requires 12.5 ml syrup.

Does that make sense?

 

[CBG]

It's ridiculously easy to use HC-110 syrup with no intermediary step when you use the easily available baby medicine syringes.

Suck syrup past where needed and squeeze the excess back down into the HC-110 container; pump the syrup into your almost topped off water; suck water and syrup in and out of the syringe a few times to rid any clinging syrup from the sides of the syringe - which will begin the process of mixing the syrup thoroughly into your developer solution.

If the HC-110 container is too low to use the syringe directly, decant the syrup into a smaller container that the syringe will reach into and use that as your syrup storage. It never hurts to have a few extra sized bottles hanging around the darkroom.

 

[MattKing]

Matt, I have heard a wide range of opinions on this too. Here is how I arrived at this conclusion. You guys follow along and see if this makes sense. I would love it if I were wrong!

Take a look at the Kodak pdf on HC-110:

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/j24/j24.pdf

Toward the bottom, it says that the capacity of 1 litre of dilution F is 1 sheet of 8x10. Dilution F is 1:79, or 80 parts in total. If you divide 1 litre by 80, you get 12.5 ml. So one sheet of 8x10 requires 12.5 ml syrup.

Does that make sense?

Don:

There are problems with that approach.

Do you use tray development? It seems to me that those numbers must reflect particular realities of tray development of LF film.

You will note, for instance, that the capacity shown for 1 gallon of dilution F is two 8x10s, even though one gallon is almost 4 times as much as one liter.

With the exception of the numbers for 1 gallon of dilution F (which would indicate a need for 25ml of concentrate per 8x10) the tray development capacity numbers do tend to average about 12.5 ml per 8x10.

I note, however, that the capacity numbers for Tanks without replenishment are different. It seems to me that except for the limited number of us who do tray development, the capacity numbers for Tanks without replenishment are more likely to apply.

Using the dilution B (1:31) numbers, one liter of working solution has the capacity to develop 5 sheets or rolls (200 ml per sheet/roll).

Each 200ml of dilution B contains 200/32 = 6.25ml of concentrate.

The numbers for the other dilutions are similar.

Personally, I've found that 6ml seems to work well, and although I've been using a lot of dilution H recently, I'm considering moving toward dilution E because of tank size considerations.

FWIW, Michael Covington's HC110 site recommends a minimum of 6ml.

Matt

 

[Don Wallace]

Matt, it is indeed confusing and I do wish Kodak would be a little more helpful in this regard. The last thing one wants to do is use too little developer, but like many of us, who has the time to do real tests?

I am using an Expert Drum for 8x10 and 5x7 so the volume is not really a problem. Even with 12.5 ml per sheet and dilution F, I can still hand roll it (mind you, I almost never do more than 2-3 sheets at a time). If you have been using 6ml per sheet of 8x10, then I will give it whirl.

For 4x5 I use a Jobo CPE2 and the drum I have is much more limited in capacity. Jobo (and I think Kodak) doesn't recommend less than 5 minutes in a rotary processor so I have to go to higher dilutions to extend the time which, of course, increases the volume of developer and thus limits the number of sheets I can do at a time. I have been using 3-4 ml per sheet of 4x5 which would be more than what I need, based on your experience. What do you think?

 

[MattKing]

Don:

One really important caveat - I only process roll film.

With that in mind, however, it really does seem to me that the tray processing recommendations are inconsistent with just about everything else.

It does stand to reason that capacities would be different for tray use vs. tank use - but I'm certainly not in a position to say how much.

When you think about it, if you look at the most commonly used dilution B, the minimum working solution you could use with 12.5ml of concentrate is 400 ml, which is bigger than many single roll tanks. I've never heard of anyone being unable to use dilution B because their tank was too small.

Do you have any old/fogged sheet film that you could test with? I'll see if I can figure a way of testing this using some old J & C roll film I have - unfortunately I don't have a densitometer at hand.

Matt

 

[George Collier]

One other reference. I have followed advice from this site before with success: http://www.covingtoninnovations.com/hc110/
See the section just over halfway down the page on dilutions, they recommend a minimum of 6ml for a 135/36 or 120 roll. As stated in an earlier post, I use a 1:60 ratio - 7:420 which does well for a single 120 roll. I'm not sure what I would do with 2 rolls of 135/36 (I can't imagine shooting 72 frames in a day - maybe my large format influence so it hasn't been an issue for me).
Also on this page is a shot of what Pat Gainer is talking about re the syringe.

 

[CBG]

I've been experimenting with HC-110 using 5ml syrup to 500 ml total developer solution, call it 1 to 100, in an 8x10 tray. The 5 to 500 ml batch seems strong enough to process a single 8x10 sheet of TMAX 100, one shot.

I'm just starting to test fairly weak dilutions, so maybe I'm wrong, but I suspect I could use an even weaker solution with no adverse effects, however that is just an untested hypothesis at this point. I suspect that development time will be the limiting factor for me, rather than failure of the developer, since I'm already somewhere around 20 minutes and this isn't stand development or anything like it. It's standard tray processing with continuous development, and by 20 minutes I'm fairly ready to move on to something more stimulating.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

OK, another hypothesis here. If you're using a volume of concentrate that is lower than what the manufacturer recommends, you may end up with developer that is exhausted. Depending on how much density there is in your negative (i.e. how much density your active developer has to build), your developer can exhaust at different rates. So if you want something that really works, you need to compare dense negatives that have been developed with more concentrate than you're using to know that you're getting all the density you intended when you exposed the film.

To me that challenges somewhat the idea of having a system of exposure and development that is logical and consistent. If my hypothesis stands, that is.

I would rather play it safe and avoid potential pit falls, and it seems like an awful long time to be processing sheets. 20 minutes in the dark, rocking trays...

Somebody prove me wrong on this one and I'll be delighted that I was wrong.

 

[MattKing]

Thomas:

I agree - that's why I suggested earlier that foggy film may be a good test subject.

I was trying to think of a testing regime that might work, and so far I've come up with the following:

1) mix up a big batch of developer at the dilution you wish to use;

2) shoot several sheets or rolls - all the same image and exposure - make sure there are some good large dense portions on each negative;

3) calculate how much working solution you need in order to have a representative sample of quantities of concentrate - i.e. how much working solution is needed to insure that you have available 3ml of concentrate, 6ml of concentrate, 9ml of concentrate, 12ml of concentrate, etc.;

4) make sure that the various volumes of working solution will actually work (i.e. will fit in the tank or tray, and will be enough to fully immerse the film);

5) develop each roll or sheet exactly the same way (time, temperature and agitation), save and except for varying the quantity of the working solution, and therefore varying the amount of concentrate actually available to the film;

6) compare the negatives that result.

If there is a fall off in density as you move toward smaller quantities of concentrate, you can hypothesize that the smaller quantity of developer became exhausted. You then need to choose what minimum amount of concentrate makes you comfortable, in your circumstances.

Any thoughts?

Matt