HC-110, Dil B vs......?

[RattyMouse]

I normally use HC110 at 1:47 (Dilution E I think). This is much more dilute than the ever popular dilution B. Of course, using the more dilute dilution means you develop for a longer time.

My question is: Are there any other advantages to using Dilution B (the more stronger dilution) over dilution E besides shorter development time (and the temperature control that comes with shorter times)? Is the grain better perhaps with shorter times? Anything else?

Using dilution E dramatically lowers my developer costs so I've been using it happily for quite some time. But I never asked this question before so I'm not sure if I am missing anything using the weaker dilutions.

Thanks!!

 

[darkosaric]

Dilution B is a must when developing some old films - having shorter developing time will give you lower base fog. For normal use - whatever works for you, I love HC110 and Rodinal for having lower costs and good shelf life.

 

[RattyMouse]

Dilution B is a must when developing some old films - having shorter developing time will give you lower base fog. For normal use - whatever works for you, I love HC110 and Rodinal for having lower costs and good shelf life.

Interesting. I'll be developing film that has traveled with me through 3 or 4 x ray machines in airports. Might shorter times be useful here?

 

[darkosaric]

When I traveled to Thailand - my films went through 3 airports (6 X ray machines) - I developed them in Rodinal 1+25 for about 10-12 minutes - no problems at all. I think it will not a problem for any dilution you use.

 

[BetterSense]

I use 50:1.

 

[ajmiller]

There is a thread on flickr that details what the writer thought HC110 did at different dilutions:- see the post from Convict J-man here.

https://www.flickr.com/groups/diybw/discuss/72157632844557306/

I'm no expert so not sure of the validity of that info.

I stick to 1:49 (a la dilution Brunner) at 8 minutes for HP5+400 and it does for me.

 

[baachitraka]

HC-110 is some how not so economical compare to Rodinal.

 

[darkosaric]

HC-110 is some how not so economical compare to Rodinal.

Look on DD-X prices . The cheapest option is APH09, but HC110 is also fraction of all costs in whole process.

 

[Dr Croubie]

Dilution B is a must when developing some old films - having shorter developing time will give you lower base fog.

Good to know. I've got some (very) old films to shoot, oldest might be 1940s or so, I was specifically going to buy some HC (well, Ilfotec-HC but as far as I know it's the same) because I've heard it's good for low fog, I'll stick them in for a short-time dilution too, thanks.

 

[BetterSense]

HC-110 is some how not so economical compare to Rodinal.

I see that HC110 price seems to have gone up. It used to be the cheapest developer of all back in 2008 or so when I last checked. Now it appears that Rodinal is cheaper.

Current Freestyle prices, and assuming $13/lb for sulfite:

Developer price ml price/ml typical use, ml typical cost per use
HC110 $36.00 1000 0.036 10 $0.36
Rodinal $13.00 500 0.026 10 $0.26
Xtol 1:1 $10.40 5000 0.00208 250 $0.52
DD-X $20.00 1000 0.02 100 $2.00
Ilfotec HC $52.00 1000 0.052 10 $0.52
D-23 1:1 $1.30 1000 0.001296163 250 $0.32
D-23 replenish $1.30 1000 0.001296163 20 $0.10

 

[darkosaric]

I see that HC110 price seems to have gone up. It used to be the cheapest developer of all back in 2008 or so when I last checked.

Current Freestyle prices; cost-per-roll in bold:

Developer price ml price/ml typical use, ml typical cost per use
HC110 $36.00 1000 0.036 10 $0.36
Rodinal $13.00 500 0.026 10 $0.26
Xtol 1:1 $10.40 5000 0.00208 250 $0.52
DD-X $20.00 1000 0.02 100 $2.00
Ilfotec HC $52.00 1000 0.052 10 $0.52
D-23 1:1 $1.30 1000 0.001296163 250 $0.32
D-23 replenish[/B] $1.30 1000 0.001296163 40 $0.05

In Europe:

DD-X: 25,35€ --> 34$ --> 2,43$ per film.
APH09: 5€ (currently out of stock) --> 6,8$ --> 0,05$ per film.

With one liter of DD-X I can develop 14 films (1+4), with half liter of APH09 (1+100) I can develop 140 films.
I use 7dcl of working solution for 2 films.

 

[darkosaric]

Why compare two completely different developers? And why compare an arbitrary dilution (Rodinal 1+100) and capacity to Ilford's recommended dilution for DD-X?

It is not arbitrary dilution - on APH bottle it is written that you can use from 1+10 to 1+400, so 1+100 is in the middle, and I am using it in 99% of time.

I am not saying developer X is better than developer Y - I used those 2 developers as the most extremes in price.


But you should ask also BetterSense user - he started this list

 

[baachitraka]

I am happy to settle with DD-23, though the fear expressed here in apug on Double-bath haunt me occasionally.

 

[darkosaric]

I am happy to settle with DD-23, though the fear expressed here in apug on Double-bath haunt me occasionally.

Whatever works for you is great
I know that there is no magic bullet, I am happy with Rodinal. But I like to experiment, it is fun. That is why, even after 10 years - I still from time to time change films, developers, cameras. Couple of months ago I tried DD-X, next is Moersch Tanol/Finol/Tanol Speed.

 

[baachitraka]

@Darko: You might know about Fototechnik Suvatlar and Darkroom Cookbook for recipe.

http://www.moersch-photochemie.de/content/rohchemie

 

[Mark_S]

Several years ago, I was developing 4x5 sheet film in BTZS tubes. I experimented with varying contrast by keeping development time constant, but changing HC-110 Dilution. I wanted to be able to develop several sheets of film simultaneously, and to still be able to control contrast on an image by image basis. It works, but it turned out to be more trouble than just doing it the traditional way with varying times.
I have since moved away from BTZS tubes and develop my film in a Jobo processor.

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

I've used dilution B for decades then I played with stand development 1:100 (from concentrate). It was quite a revelation. I use this dilution with stand development for an hour with Arista Edu ASA 100 and 400 for high contrast scenes work very well. I agitate for the first minute. During stand development, the developer in the highlight areas exhaust first while the shadow areas keep developing. My negatives do get grainier from sitting in the soup so long, but the tonality is beautiful. I like the idea of working for a minute than walk away for an hour. I use a water bath to keep the temp constant.

 

[Roger Cole]

I see that HC110 price seems to have gone up. It used to be the cheapest developer of all back in 2008 or so when I last checked. Now it appears that Rodinal is cheaper.

Current Freestyle prices, and assuming $13/lb for sulfite:

Developer price ml price/ml typical use, ml typical cost per use
HC110 $36.00 1000 0.036 10 $0.36
Rodinal $13.00 500 0.026 10 $0.26
Xtol 1:1 $10.40 5000 0.00208 250 $0.52
DD-X $20.00 1000 0.02 100 $2.00
Ilfotec HC $52.00 1000 0.052 10 $0.52
D-23 1:1 $1.30 1000 0.001296163 250 $0.32
D-23 replenish $1.30 1000 0.001296163 20 $0.10

Great googlymoogly. I can understand that it adds up if you shoot a lot and want to use DD-X. But the rest of these are so close I can't see how they could matter. If a difference of the ten cents a roll between $0.26 and $0.36 is really significant to you then I sympathize, I truly do, but I would respectfully suggest that your time would be better spent finding a better job or cutting expenses somewhere else.

Really, ten cents?

 

[Roger Cole]

Understood. What I mean is I don't think Agfa originally ever gave instructions for dilutions higher than 1+50. Higher dilutions like 1+100 etc. became popular over the years and at this point when you buy Rodinal-type developers (APH, R09,Adonal etc. etc.) the bottles might have indications for high dilutions. So you might be able to use more dilute versions of DD-X too. People have used it at 1+9 and I suspect you could dilute it much more (assuming all that matters is $/roll - which is the underlying assumption here).

You almost certainly could. T-Max developer also suggests 1+4 but people use up to 1+9. I tend to use 1+5 but only because that gives me results I like with Kodak's times for 1+4. With extended times up to 1+7 works great. Some people like 1+9 though I personally didn't care for the midtones, though it is still workable.

 

[MattKing]

One of the advantages of HC-110 is that it was designed to give similar (although not identical) results at different dilutions.

If you are looking for economy, replenishment is your friend. X-Tol replenished costs about $0.14/roll.

I'm using HC-110 replenished, and it is very cheap, but the HC-110 replenisher is no more.

I would normally expect to develop about 160 rolls of film out of a 1 liter bottle of HC-110 if I was using it one shot and 1+47 (dil E, essentially the same as 1+49). I can afford $0.22/roll.

 

[ntenny]

Great googlymoogly.

...I injured the fur trapper.

I can understand that it adds up if you shoot a lot and want to use DD-X. But the rest of these are so close I can't see how they could matter.

I agree---compared to the costs of film, developer is cheap. I guess it makes sense to keep an eye on your "cost of operations" in a general way, but is anyone really more limited by the cost of developer than by the cost of film, fixer, paper, or time? Heck, if you use DIH2O, the cost of *water* is higher than the cost of a lot of these developers.

Personally, I've never noticed a functional difference between HC-110 dilutions, apart from developing times. In theory there must be one, but I think you need to have other variables under pretty tight control for it to become important. (I thought the point about fog made sense, but as I think about it, I'm not so sure. Age-related fog is from actual activated silver grains, isn't it? It seems like those grains will develop with the rest of the film, irrespective of developer working speed---especially in the shadows where it's most important. But honestly, I don't understand how the antifoggants work---How Do It Know?)

-NT

 

[darkosaric]

@Darko: You might know about Fototechnik Suvatlar and Darkroom Cookbook for recipe.

http://www.moersch-photochemie.de/content/rohchemie

Yes, I know . This is next step in fun - when I am finished with pyro testing, next is wet collodion, and then cooking my own stuff (liquid emulsion is first on the list).

 

[Dr Croubie]

I would respectfully suggest that your time would be better spent finding a better job or cutting expenses somewhere else.
Really, ten cents?

When I was doing my Engineering degree, I did some work experience soldering some tiny tiny stuff, resistors 0.04"x0.02" in size, and price to match.
Even at my pretty low rate, I worked out that if I dropped one on the floor, I had to spend less than 2.3 seconds finding it or it would be cheaper to grab a new one (and yes, I did that calculation on comapny time).

Somehow this thread has become about economy, so consider this: if 10c is the difference in price per roll, and you shoot 1 roll per week, at the end of the year you'll have enough money to buy about 1 more roll of film.

 

[RattyMouse]

When I was doing my Engineering degree, I did some work experience soldering some tiny tiny stuff, resistors 0.04"x0.02" in size, and price to match.
Even at my pretty low rate, I worked out that if I dropped one on the floor, I had to spend less than 2.3 seconds finding it or it would be cheaper to grab a new one (and yes, I did that calculation on comapny time).

Somehow this thread has become about economy, so consider this: if 10c is the difference in price per roll, and you shoot 1 roll per week, at the end of the year you'll have enough money to buy about 1 more roll of film.

But you will have no money left to develop it!! :devil: