Having a hard time understanding the Leica Mystique - aka Astronomical Prices

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Nomad

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I suspect some of the so-called mystique rests in Leica being the grand-daddy of 35mm photography (somebody had to be first), and then being a leader in the quality end of the market for several decades. To me, they're just very finely made cameras. I started with a IIIf and an Elmar a year or so ago, specifically to find out what Leica was all about. There were no heavenly choirs, and my photographs didn't suddenly become any more 'art' than they already were (or weren't). I felt that the squinty finder was a bit of a pain to use, and the camera needed a CLA within a few rolls of film, which it duly got. When I use it, I liken it to driving something like a classic Rolls Royce - a bit quirky and different to modern equipment, but an excellent tactile experience due to the fit, finish, and superb build quality. It pleases me that something 56 years old can feel so good in the hand, and I have to admit that I feel like I'm using a genuine classic that has its place in photographic history.

But the squinty finder is a bit of a pain, the rangefinder patch is a little dull, the knob film advance can be a bit slow at times, it can be annoying if you catch the spinning shutter speed dial with a finger when you release the shutter (and have to reshoot, assuming it wasn't a 'decisive moment' pic, in which case there is nothing to reshoot), the restriction to a 50mm field of view is inconvenient, as is having to trim the film leader with my swiss army knife, the shutter speeds are odd, lens changes are slow, etc, etc.

So I got an M2 a year ago. Great finder, lever advance, no leader trimming, proper shutter speeds, etc. Build quality? Still top banana - every bit as good as the IIIf. Another classic Rolls Royce, with an updated design, and much easier to drive. Aside from being easier to use, what I like about the M2 in particular is that it's 48 years old, but barely feels 5 years old. Unlike the IIIf, the M2 doesn't have that feel of using a piece of history, probably because its design is more conventional with regard to my experience of 35mm cameras. Of the dozen+ cameras that I own (film and digital), the M2 is my primary camera. All of my lenses are LTM with adapters, and only the Elmar is Leica glass (Russian and Voigtlander for the rest). Those and both bodies live in a small outfit bag which goes with me everywhere.

I think most of the so-called mystique is down to a combination of people waxing lyrical about the equipment, and a certain admiration for the work of famous Leica users over the years. Some of it surely stems from the amazing build quality - anyone who uses hand tools, of any sort, can usually appreciate tools that are very well made, and there is a certain pleasure in using kit that is the best - in knowing that there is no upgrade path. The other small film cameras that I use (Olympus 35RC, Olympus XA, Rollei 35S) are simply not in the same league (the 'baby Leica' appellation that is sometimes given to the Rollei 35 is nonsense - it's nice, but it's not a patch on the real deal).

For me, there is no mystique - it's all in people's heads. Out of the M2 and IIIf, it's the IIIf that puts a smile on my face - it's that slice of history thing, and knowing that the IIIf is just about the pinnacle of the Barnack form factor. The M2 is what I would call the more serious picture taking machine - very fast and intuitive, and more trasparent as a tool. The IIIf is more like engineering art in the true 'form follows function' tradition. This isn't mystique - it's just my personal disposition towards a particular camera, with a nod to the photographic history that led to its creation. The name on the top plate is immaterial. Somebody had to be first, somebody had to be better than anyone else, and that just happened to be Leica.
 

Q.G.

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For me, there is no mystique - it's all in people's heads.

Where else would you hope to find "mystique"?
:wink:

The RF Leica has become a true classic, because it was the best available camera for a new type of photography ('stealthy' reportage - compare Leica-like cameras to the big press cameras of the day).
It wasn't first (in anything), nor alone, nor did it 'invent' that type of photography. It stood out, became the tool of choice, because Leitz knew how to make things good.

Though it is a thing from the distant past, Leicas still enjoy that well earned reputation.
They are still well made, but (like Kodachrome film) something very outdated (yes, you can still take photos with them) and long surpassed in usability by many others.
For instance: the Olympus OM series have been mentioned already, and they are as small, as quiet and as good as the RF Leica, but are far more versatile cameras.

So the price paid for anything with the name Leica on it is very much largely (they are still high quality thingies, and you pay for that too) "mystique". The idea of owning a physical link to an important part of photographic history is worth something (it really is).
 

IloveTLRs

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I think most of the so-called mystique is down to a combination of people waxing lyrical about the equipment, and a certain admiration for the work of famous Leica users over the years. ...

It is in my case. I, too, have a IIIf and an M2 and adore them both. H. Cartier-Bresson is oft quoted as saying the Leica was "an extension of [his] eye" and while many people may roll their eyes at such talk, I believe I understand what he meant.

I have run put over 100 rolls of film through my IIIf and loved every minute with it - and yes, that includes changing lenses, loading film, cutting leaders and everything else that drives people mad. All of my favorite photos have come from the IIIf (even my avatar is from the IIIf manual.)

The name on the top plate is immaterial.

100% agree. 'Run what you brung' and be happy with it.
 

Q.G.

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What Cartier Bresson was saying was not that the LEICA was an extension of his eye, but his CAMERA (that happened to be a Leica) was an extension of his eye.
 

Q.G.

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But the type of metal that plate is made out of is crucially important!

That's rather exagerating things a bit.
What's important is what's beneath that top plate. The plate itself only serves to protect the innards. Almost anything would do for that.
:wink:
 

thegman

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I have a Zeiss Ikon, and my brother recently bought a Leica M6. The Leica is somewhat more solidly built, but other than that, I felt no desire to own it, and I feel no draw of "mystique". I do like the lenses though, I have a cheap Summicron, battered and old, and I'd say it generally outperforms my brand new Voigtlander lens.

I'm probably going to fall on both sides of the argument: Leica make lovely cameras and great lenses, but so do lots of companies.
 
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lilmsmaggie

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Well, I'm about to find out. I took the plunge. :eek:

After some discussion with a professional photog that has gone strictly digital, I purchased what I suppose many consider to be the "ugly duckling" of the Leica breed: A Black Leica M5 w/ Box, Case, 50mm Summicron lens AND several rolls of HP5 film. Based on selling prices of Leica's for the body only, I think I got a decent deal on a beautifully maintained camera and lens kit.

Stay tuned :munch:
 

agfarapid

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Great article--thanks! It reminded me (again) as to why I purchased and use an M3. My first daliance with the brand was the purchase of a IIIc back in college in '68. It cost $49.95 in good working condition. Three years later I bought my M3. While saving up for that purchase, I rummaged through every used camera store in NYC, lusting in my heart over every Leica that I could get my hands on. There were shops along 6th Ave near Rockefeller Center at that time which had rows upon rows of M3's and M2's. My M3 was a joy to use and I've captured a lot of moments of life with it. It embodies a very different way of photography, one in which it requires the user to pre-visualize the image prior to pressing the shutter button. I've since purchased and used a wide variety of cameras since but none shoots like a Leica.
 

jacarape

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Leica "mystique"? Give me a break. The mystique is in your imagination.

Why don't we change the thread topic to the mystic of collecting cheap plates of the 50 States that are made in China? How about really evil looking dolls? Spoons anyone?

How about the mystique of the OLY OM cameras? Or Ferrari's? Or any other hobby? Who in their right mind would pay 100 bucks for a limited edition print?

Let's discuss the mystique of my Hasselblad 500c/m. Look at how old they are and how expensive they remain. What is the mystique of a 38mm Biogon? Silly SWC, so overpriced, it must be collectors.

Regarding the salty M3, who and why would you care if somebody wanted it? I spent 4 grand on my last car, and 22 grand on my last vacation. I'm sure that bothers some people but why would I care? So I was driving a 27 year old MB 300SEL that would still do 135mph in comfort (though I would have to immediately pull over and add 2qts of oil). I spent a month in Brazil then 3 more weeks in Honduras, and had plenty of change left over.
 
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lilmsmaggie

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Leica "mystique"? Give me a break. The mystique is in your imagination.

Why don't we change the thread topic to the mystic of collecting cheap plates of the 50 States that are made in China? How about really evil looking dolls? Spoons anyone?

How about the mystique of the OLY OM cameras? Or Ferrari's? Or any other hobby? Who in their right mind would pay 100 bucks for a limited edition print?

Let's discuss the mystique of my Hasselblad 500c/m. Look at how old they are and how expensive they remain. What is the mystique of a 38mm Biogon? Silly SWC, so overpriced, it must be collectors.

Regarding the salty M3, who and why would you care if somebody wanted it? I spent 4 grand on my last car, and 22 grand on my last vacation. I'm sure that bothers some people but why would I care? So I was driving a 27 year old MB 300SEL that would still do 135mph in comfort (though I would have to immediately pull over and add 2qts of oil). I spent a month in Brazil then 3 more weeks in Honduras, and had plenty of change left over.


My, looks like someone got their Hanes all in a bunch.

Chill out dude - take a pill or something. :smile:
 

Nomad

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Where else would you hope to find "mystique"?
:wink:

Well, my point was that the the cameras themselves don't have a physical property that leads to it. It's more about the history and reputation of the company and its products in general, and the erroneous association of great/famous images and Leicas leading some to think that such equipment is somehow neccessary.

I ended up with Leica when I became disillusioned with my DSLR, and wanted to go back to somethnig mechanical and manual (had been away from photography for 25 years before that, and had used a Minolta SRT-303 back in the day). The attractions for me were simple 'proper' controls, all mechanical, no battery dependence, interchangeable lenses, and superb build quality. Until I did my research a year or so ago, I was barely aware of Leica, and wasn't particularly interested in rangefinders.
 
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lilmsmaggie

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I became disillusioned with my DSLR, and wanted to go back to somethnig mechanical and manual (had been away from photography for 25 years before that, and had used a Minolta SRT-303 back in the day). The attractions for me were simple 'proper' controls, all mechanical, no battery dependence, interchangeable lenses, and superb build quality. Until I did my research a year or so ago, I was barely aware of Leica, and wasn't particularly interested in rangefinders.

Ditto - Same here. With me it was Minolta SRT-101's and the X-700.

Still have the two X-700 bodies and several Rokkor's. Thinking I'm gonna have to part with one of the bodies and a 45mm lens to offset my recent purchase.
Not that they'll bring much but every lil bit helps :D

Really became disgusted to learn what I would get for a barely used Canon 40D :w00t:
 

jacarape

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Ditto - Same here. With me it was Minolta SRT-101's and the X-700.

Still have the two X-700 bodies and several Rokkor's. Thinking I'm gonna have to part with one of the bodies and a 45mm lens to offset my recent purchase.
Not that they'll bring much but every lil bit helps :D

Really became disgusted to learn what I would get for a barely used Canon 40D :w00t:

I have tried to trade an Oly OM-1n and two lenses for 5 rolls of film. I also offered to give it away. No takers.

This is really a cool camera, just a tad larger then my MP side by side.

So I'm cool with the "mystique". All of my L items sell for what I paid or more. It may just be the time to sell and "suffer" with a beater Blad.
 

Mark Crabtree

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I have tried to trade an Oly OM-1n and two lenses for 5 rolls of film. I also offered to give it away. No takers.

This is really a cool camera, just a tad larger then my MP side by side.

So I'm cool with the "mystique". All of my L items sell for what I paid or more. It may just be the time to sell and "suffer" with a beater Blad.

I'm tempted to try and trade you out of that OM; it would make a nice bicycle camera. Nonetheless, I agree completely about the Leica. Necessity forced me to trade my Leicas many years ago in order to get the equipment I needed for a newspaper job (lots of high school football). I ended up with OM-1's. They were nice cameras but I had to have 3 bodies to keep 2 working; I was shooting about 100 foot of film a week then.

I immediately missed the Leicas. I eventually got my original M2 back. It finally had to go in for a CLA about 30 years after I first owned it. It has shot many thousands for feet of film for three different newspaper photographers since I've known it. I assume it was well used in the dozen or so years before that also.

All in all Leica M's have been about the most economical cameras I've ever owned. The non-collector models seem like an incredible bargain at today's prices.
 

michaelbsc

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All in all Leica M's have been about the most economical cameras I've ever owned. The non-collector models seem like an incredible bargain at today's prices.

So what exactly constitutes the non-collector models.

I have dismissed them out of hand for years because they are a little confusing, and the prices were all over the map. As I mentioned earlier, for a photographer of my skill, my FSU ltm body and lenses are awesome. In fact, my skill is so great that some of my best work was with a brownie. :sad: Although some may argue about classifying it as work.

My classification of a great camera is one that looks like someone has dropped it a few dozen times, but it works properly. I'm struggling to get pretty pictures, not a pretty camera. I think the KEH Bargain grade it just fine.

Recommend something, please.
 

Mark Crabtree

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So what exactly constitutes the non-collector models.

I have dismissed them out of hand for years because they are a little confusing, and the prices were all over the map. As I mentioned earlier, for a photographer of my skill, my FSU ltm body and lenses are awesome. In fact, my skill is so great that some of my best work was with a brownie. :sad: Although some may argue about classifying it as work.

My classification of a great camera is one that looks like someone has dropped it a few dozen times, but it works properly. I'm struggling to get pretty pictures, not a pretty camera. I think the KEH Bargain grade it just fine.

Recommend something, please.

As someone mentioned earlier, prices skyrocket as condition goes up. The common models in good (but not spectacular) condition seems like firm ground.

The M4-2 is a very nice camera and favorite of mine. Except for some early teething problems the build quality is not quite as high as the earlier cameras, but still great compared to about anything else. It is lighter than earlier cameras and has a hot shoe (I don't need that now, but did use it at one time).

I think the M4 is the best of all. An M2 or M3 is great, though a bit less ergonomic and is also older of course. Lots of people want a meter and that mostly means an M6, but I prefer the older, simpler viewfinders.

Personally I'd prefer one that had been serviced by a good Leica specialist. It is generally cheaper to buy one serviced than have to do it later, but bargains do show up regularly on "as-is" bodies.

I don't mean to imply that everybody should buy one, or even want one, but several generations of photographers have been served well by them.
 

Nomad

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The ones that aren't rare have little interest to collectors. Obviously, if 100,000 of a particular model were made, demand is diluted compared to that for one where only 200 were made. Info is available on the net, listing things like models, serial number groupings, and number of cameras manufactured. Most M3s, M2s, M4s (various incarnations) and M6s are non-collector cameras. M3 and M2 tend to cost less than M4 and M6. I paid £500 for my M2, in excellent condition (and not needing a CLA any time soon, according to my local repair guy). I had started by wanting a new MP, but decided that trying to scrape up the extra £2500 for a built in meter and a coat of black paint wasn't worth it - a 50 year old M2 is very close to a new MP. I chose an M2 rather than an M3 for the wider viewfinder - it has framelines for 35mm, while the M3 only goes to 50mm. I also preferred the all-metal levers and knob rewind to the plastic-tipped and crank of the M4 and M6.

In other words, there are variations between the various models, and you have to decide what you're looking for in a camera, and then match that to a particular model (or option within a model - some models offer different viewfinder maginifications, for example). In my case, I like a 35mm lens, so an M3 was never an option for me.
 
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lilmsmaggie

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Say hello to my lil (new) friend ...
 

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Lee L

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The shutter on the M5 is continuously variable, not stuck at fixed 1/125, 1/250, etc, so with the matching crosshairs meter in the finder, you can adjust the exposure perfectly. It's a 'spot' meter, which reads only the light falling on the meter cell at the center of the frame. Watch out when using collapsible lenses on the M5. Some of them hit the meter cell arm when collapsed. There are compatibility lists around, and Leica published information on which widths of Dymo plastic labeling tape (placed around the sliding part of the lens barrel) would prevent which collapsible lenses from hitting the meter. Have fun.

You can have the meter recalibrated to modern replacements for the original PX625 battery if it hasn't already been done.

Lee
 
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