Have you ever seen 1:1 comparisons of the Tele Rolleiflex 135 Sonnar against other lenses?

flavio81 said:

It's called "Bronica GS-1".

And if you don't need leaf shutter lenses, the most portable is the Pentax 6x7.

And if you don't need reflex viewing, the most portable is the Mamiya 7 rangefinder.

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Hardly when format flipping gets in the way. RB/RZ rotating backs are often enough a godsend. GS-1 with standard prism, where it looses most of its weight and size appeal already, is not close to same handling. When one considers rotating prism for GS-1 it is now officially another 6x7 monster. Speed grip is great, but when stuck onto the body, it's bigger than RB.

But GS-1, when it works, and with WLF, is indeed on small side for a 6x7.

P67 is not what its 35 looks suggest, it's heavy and awkward in handheld use without right-hand grip. Left grip, so good looking, was clearly meant to handle the thing from one location to another, not for actual shooting.

For 6x7 portrait/studio shooting there is hardly an alternative with any camera, but solid tripod, mounted on a quality dolly, with geared centre column, all of which combine into a relatively quick distance and angle changes, next best thing to handheld freedom.

There is a not too common 135mm f/3.5 Sonnar for the Hasselblad 1600/1000 in Hasselblad's original screw mount (anyone know the official name for this mount?). I'm sure it's a different design from the Rolleiflex TLR version. But it would be an interesting place to start if wanting a similar Sonnar look at 135mm. But, honestly, I doubt anything else will look the same. That Tele-Rollei lens is something special.

Hassasin said:

it's heavy and awkward in handheld use without right-hand grip. Left grip, so good looking, was clearly meant to handle the thing from one location to another, not for actual shooting.

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It isn't particularly heavy (if you are not severely deconditioned) nor difficult to hold in a vertical format.
The grip does help (and can be used rather cleverly with the quick focus handles), but isn't essential.

MMfoto said:

I'm sure it's a different design from the Rolleiflex TLR version

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Top to bottom: 135/3.5 from the early focal plane Hasselblads; 135/4 from Tele-Rollei; 150/4 from Hasselblad V system.

Lachlan Young said:

It isn't particularly heavy (if you are not severely deconditioned) nor difficult to hold in a vertical format.
The grip does help (and can be used rather cleverly with the quick focus handles), but isn't essential.

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I'm comparing P67 to RB67 and GS1.

P67 is heavy. I say it is awkward with just left hand grip, because that grip makes no sense, keeping left hand on the grip without being able to use it for effectively anything else (not even changing shutter speed). Right hand is left to wind-on, focus, and fire shutter. It's an ergonomic nightmare to put it bluntly. Sure, you can call it my opinion. It actually makes a lot more sense to use it without the left grip. And without left grip it is also noticeably lighter.

Quick focus handle has limited movement while hand is stuck on the grip, this will vary person to person.

After market right hand grips added decent ergonomy to it (as Pentax realised same on P67 II)

One could argue, in spite of what some imply (Including Pentax advertising), P67 was meant to be on tripod, in which case ergonomy is not so much of a factor.

Hassasin said:

After market right hand grips added decent ergonomy to it (as Pentax realised same on P67 II)

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99% of those frankly rather weird grips are blatantly for camera-bling show-off factor for inadequate men desperate to show how macho they think they can make the Pentax look, rather like the strange wind lever accessories sold for digital Leicas and Fuji X100's. The 67II was a much more thorough rework of the whole right side of the camera than just adding a grip. The plain old 6x7/67 is not hard to hold on to, despite what you are clearly desperate to claim. Nothing about the 67II has made me desperate to own one over the 3 6x7/67s I have.

Hassasin said:

without left grip it is also noticeably lighter.

Quick focus handle has limited movement while hand is stuck on the grip, this will vary person to person.

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The point of both was to make it more stable under some circumstances (i.e. extend hand holdable range). It isn't essential. It doesn't take a genius to work out how to use it and when to remove it from the camera. Again, most people who own the grip use it as a show-off accessory rather than those who use the camera to produce work.

Hassasin said:

One could argue, in spite of what some imply (Including Pentax advertising), P67 was meant to be on tripod, in which case ergonomy is not so much of a factor.

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I know quite a few people who use the big Pentax pretty routinely, and I'd struggle to think of when any of us last put one on a tripod. If you need to use a tripod, you're better off dragging the 4x5 or 8x10 along.

Lachlan Young said:

Top to bottom: 135/3.5 from the early focal plane Hasselblads; 135/4 from Tele-Rollei; 150/4 from Hasselblad V system.

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Thanks for attaching those optical block images. Interesting stuff.

Hassasin said:

P67 is not what its 35 looks suggest, it's heavy and awkward in handheld use without right-hand grip. Left grip, so good looking, was clearly meant to handle the thing from one location to another, not for actual shooting.

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Right hand grips, for the P67, are cheap and small. I don't see what the problem is.

Pentax 6x7 is really the smallest 6x7 reflex you can get. And it's easy and nimble to handle.

Hassasin said:

I'm comparing P67 to RB67 and GS1.

P67 is heavy. (...) It's an ergonomic nightmare to put it bluntly

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Well, the RB67, which you advocate, is significantly heavier.

I went from owning four RB67 pro-S bodies (and lots of accessories) to the Pentax 67 system. I have also owned at some point in time both the Pentax 67 and the RB67 pro-S cameras.

There's no question which camera is lighter and easier to handle, it is the Pentax 67/6x7.

If the P67 is an "ergonomic nightmare" then what the RB67 is? You need two steps just to advance a frame, three if you count that you should check that the multiple exposure lever isn't engaged.

I understand everybody has an opinion but this one is difficult to understand.

Now, the P67 is not a perfect camera. Focusing, for example, is far easier on the RB67.

Hassasin said:

One could argue, in spite of what some imply (Including Pentax advertising), P67 was meant to be on tripod, in which case ergonomy is not so much of a factor.

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I only use my P67 handheld.

flavio81 said:

Well, the RB67, which you advocate, is significantly heavier.

I went from owning four RB67 pro-S bodies (and lots of accessories) to the Pentax 67 system. I have also owned at some point in time both the Pentax 67 and the RB67 pro-S cameras.

There's no question which camera is lighter and easier to handle, it is the Pentax 67/6x7.

If the P67 is an "ergonomic nightmare" then what the RB67 is? You need two steps just to advance a frame, three if you count that you should check that the multiple exposure lever isn't engaged.

I understand everybody has an opinion but this one is difficult to understand.

Now, the P67 is not a perfect camera. Focusing, for example, is far easier on the RB67.




I only use my P67 handheld.

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The P67 really is the easiest 120 camera use and handhold apart from the Rollei TLR and rangefinder cameras, shutter/mirror vibrations aside.

MMfoto said:

The P67 really is the easiest 120 camera use and handhold apart from the Rollei TLR and rangefinder cameras, shutter/mirror vibrations aside.

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Hasselblad? Rolleiflex SLRs? Mamiya, Bronica, etc?

Pieter12 said:

Hasselblad? Rolleiflex SLRs? Mamiya, Bronica, etc?

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hmm these are the ones i've owned, besides the P6x7 and P67

Bronica ETRS and ETRSi .- Yes, easy to handhold in general. Easier than the P6x7 i'd say. See my avatar pic and you'll see which camera I prefer.

Rolleiflex T White face.- I never got fully along with the ergonomics

Rolleicord Vb.- Compact but i couldn't easily hold it steady.

Mamiya C330 and C220 .- The C330 i found nice to handle with the side grip + certain lenses that don't protrude too much, like the 55, 65 and 80mm lenses. Once you get to the 105, 135, and 180, they aren't nice to handle, because they throw the body off balance to the front. The 135 is the worst in this regard.

Mamiya RB67 pro-S .- Leaving the weight aside, easy to handhold but slow to operate.

Salyut-S (like a Hasselblad 1000F) .- OK/good ergonomics, when it works. Mirror shock surprisingly low.

then i've handled

Hasselblad 500C/M .- Almost identical ergonomics to the Salyut. Mirror shock too high. Actually it seems the venetian blinds on the back are the ones that contribute the most to vibrations.

Various Rolleiflexes .- Same comment

Mamiya M645 1000F .- Not as nice as a Bronica ETRS camera, in terms of ergonomics. More "agricultural" too. But still I think it's a better buy than many other medium format cameras.

Fujifilm GM670 .- Good handling, but noisy shutter sound, and I expected better finish quality for such an expensive camera .

I have never used a SL66. I want one, though.