Have D-76 and ID-11 given different contrast to you?

Juan Valdenebro

Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2010
Messages
1,286
Location
South America
Format
Multi Format
Ilford official times for HP5+ in D-76 and ID-11 show both developers work differently.

While @400, using stock solution, same development time is recommended for both developers, @400, using 1+1, ID-11 requires 18% more development time than D-76.

@800 with stock, ID-11 requires 11% more time than D-76, and @800 1+1 the difference is +23% for ID-11.

The situation for FP4+ is a totally different one, as if it depended on every film. And for PanF50+, the same times are OK for both developers.

The most extended opinion is both developers can be used with the same development times, while some users say Ilford testing is sloppy, and a few say both developers give different contrast depending on film.

I use Kodak’s D-76 mixed with distilled water, kept in amber glass bottles to the brim, and I’ve tested it doesn’t change activity in more than a year when it’s not been in contact with oxygen. I use it at least 6 hours after I mix it, and it’s behaved exactly the same way -identical contrast- for many years: never any issue.

What’s your opinion or experience? Are Ilford tests sloppy, or do both developers work differently depending on film?
 

Paul Howell

Subscriber
Joined
Dec 23, 2004
Messages
9,739
Location
Scottsdale Az
Format
Multi Format
Good question, I have always ID11 just I would used D76 and never noticed any differences, on the other hand I don't use much ILford film. Interested to see what others have to say.
 

cliveh

Subscriber
Joined
Oct 9, 2010
Messages
7,553
Format
35mm RF
Isn't D76 and ID11 virtually the same formulation and so development times at given temperatures should be identical.
 
OP
OP

Juan Valdenebro

Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2010
Messages
1,286
Location
South America
Format
Multi Format
cliveh said:
Isn't D76 and ID11 virtually the same formulation and so development times at given temperatures should be identical.
Click to expand...

They're close for sure, but I think they're not... Both are MQ developers, though.
I guess buffering is not the only difference: that would explain contrast/times differences.
Or who knows if even buffering alone can produce differences in contrast depending on film and dilution...
 
Last edited:
OP
OP

Juan Valdenebro

Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2010
Messages
1,286
Location
South America
Format
Multi Format
One thing I'm sure of:
A few years ago I mixed a gallon of ID-11 (my only time in the last 15 years), and when I developed a first roll with my D-76 times, the roll came out a bit weak. As I had stored all that ID-11 in glass, I left it there (no oxygen) for a few months, using other developers... When I tried to use it again (maybe after six months) not only it gave me another weak development, but all bottles (unused stock) had a fair amount of byproducts in the bottom, so I never tried ID-11 again.
I imagine, being ID-11 packaged in two parts instead of one, it should keep at least as long as D-76, but perhaps there are small formulae differences...
If someone uses ID-11 for a year like I do with D-76, it would be good to know.
 

ic-racer

Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2007
Messages
16,562
Location
USA
Format
Multi Format
Those times are just suggestions. They can't know what kind of enlarger or printing paper you use.
 
OP
OP

Juan Valdenebro

Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2010
Messages
1,286
Location
South America
Format
Multi Format
I don't use recommended times, ic...
I use mine, after calibration for wet printing.
So, what's your opinion?
Sloppy testing by Ilford, or both developers give different results?
 

MattKing

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
53,251
Location
Delta, BC Canada
Format
Medium Format
Ilford testing regimes use different contrast measuring methods then were previously used by Kodak.
The methods are quite similar, but they are not identical.
 
OP
OP

Juan Valdenebro

Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2010
Messages
1,286
Location
South America
Format
Multi Format
This seems strange to me: most of the times D-76 appears stronger, but...
Talking about stock, 1+1 and 1+3, Ilford official times for HP5+ in ID-11 and D-76 are:
ID-11: 7.5 / 13 / 20
D-76: 7.5 / 11 / 22
Isn't it strange ?
Could it be Ilford testing is a collection of varying procedures and teams, possibly even from different years, instead of a more unified one?
I'm curious because I would like to be able to use my D-76 times (in several dilutions for several EIs and types of scene contrast) for ID-11 if it's ever necessary... I don't care at all about times for both developers being different... I care about times by Ilford being wrong, because that would make their chart useless for comparing developers' activity.
If we're doing low contrast scenes, who cares, but when we use all film's latitude for printing high contrst scenes, a development that's off by 23% is a problem.
 

Steven Lee

Member
Joined
Jul 10, 2022
Messages
1,438
Location
USA
Format
Medium Format
Wow... this is quite interesting. I never paid attention before, but yes indeed, the Ilford's own datasheet for HP5+ lists different times for ID-11 and D76. I will be following this thread.
 
OP
OP

Juan Valdenebro

Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2010
Messages
1,286
Location
South America
Format
Multi Format
I found this (from seven years ago):

ID11 times different than D76?

The inside of HP5 film boxes says to develop 16 minutes in ID11 but only 12:30 in D76. I thought these two developers were the same? Is Ilford trying to sabotage competing developers by giving bad instructions?
www.photrio.com
No conclusion...
"Use times as a guide only", but nothing on the real thread's subject.
 
OP
OP

Juan Valdenebro

Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2010
Messages
1,286
Location
South America
Format
Multi Format
Simon Galley talked about conspiracy theories being absurd: I agree.
I've read some people (other forums) say at Ilford they like to recommend wrong times for D-76 so people use ID-11 with better results.
Another idea has been money and time spent in Ilford's tests for D-76 are minimal, compared to those for ID-11... I don't think it requires a lot of time or money.
 
Last edited:
OP
OP

Juan Valdenebro

Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2010
Messages
1,286
Location
South America
Format
Multi Format
Well, Ian Grant said differences in both developers' formulae, mostly buffering, imply differences in development times.
At least that makes sense as it explains different times variations depending on dilution and film.
By now, the answer is, most of the times both developers don't work identically.
 
OP
OP

Juan Valdenebro

Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2010
Messages
1,286
Location
South America
Format
Multi Format
By the way, when was the last time Kodak gave times for ID-11?
Did it happen?
There we could see a second opinion...
 

pentaxuser

Member
Joined
May 9, 2005
Messages
20,016
Location
Daventry, No
Format
35mm

So it looks like you have answered your own question.

pentaxuser
 

cliveh

Subscriber
Joined
Oct 9, 2010
Messages
7,553
Format
35mm RF
Don't believe what Ilford say about D76 and what Kodak say about ID11.
 
OP
OP

Juan Valdenebro

Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2010
Messages
1,286
Location
South America
Format
Multi Format
cliveh:
If we did the same scene with HP5+ @800, with both developers at 1+1 using the same development time, and the ID-11 negative came with less density, you should believe what Ilford say about D-76.
I suspect they're right.
 

MattKing

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
53,251
Location
Delta, BC Canada
Format
Medium Format
Juan Valdenebro said:
By the way, when was the last time Kodak gave times for ID-11?
Did it happen?
There we could see a second opinion...
Click to expand...

Never in published materials.
But I'd be willing to bet that in days of yore when the commercial labs were big customers, the sales and technical people from both Kodak and Ilford would have been very aware of similarities and differences between the two, as they pitched their respective products to potential customers who were open to discuss switching.
Kodak, of course, had the large commercial advantage of having the patent on the technology that permitted D-76 to be sold in a single container. Ilford couldn't use that technology, so ID-11 always required users to mix up stock using powder from two different containers, thus increasing mixing times.
 

koraks

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
23,431
Location
Europe
Format
Multi Format

Or yet another possible explanation: the testing of D76 and ID11 were done at different times and/or by different lab personnel and using different standards, different versions of the same film and/or different lab methods. You could call it 'sloppy'; I'm no judge, but I see multiple ways how a virtually identical developer could come with different development times from the same film manufacturer. Which is to say that it's still inconclusive if ID11 behaves identically to D76.

Sorry: I missed this comment of yours:
Juan Valdenebro said:
Could it be Ilford testing is a collection of varying procedures and teams, possibly even from different years, instead of a more unified one?
Click to expand...
That's what I meant
 
Last edited:

Lachlan Young

Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2005
Messages
4,955
Location
Glasgow
Format
Multi Format
Juan Valdenebro said:
Ilford official times for HP5+ in D-76 and ID-11 show both developers work differently.
Click to expand...

They don't. Ilford and Kodak's suggested agitation schemes for small tanks differ, and their aim densities for a given EI differ. Normalise them and you'll find that there are no meaningful differences. For the large part it's the difference between an aim CI of 0.55 and 0.6-0.62 (it's literally there in Kodak's own data).
 
Last edited:
OP
OP

Juan Valdenebro

Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2010
Messages
1,286
Location
South America
Format
Multi Format
Hello Lachlan,
I think you didn't read the thread before posting.
We're talking about times by Ilford only.
No times by Kodak, no Kodak testing, no Kodak CI.
Thanks.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Menu
Log in
Register
Cookies are required to use this site. You must accept them to continue using the site. Learn more…