Hassy vs. RZ: Another one of THOSE threads....

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Alan Gales

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See previous comment

:smile:


When I worked sheet metal I wore a thick leather belt with two deep leather tool pouches attached. I also wore suspenders to distribute the weight to my shoulders. I still tried to only carry the tools I needed for the job at hand on me. The rest of my tools were nearby in my tool box. Why some women carry so much in a purse is beyond me.
 

lxdude

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I've told my girlfriend that I'm sure she could get by with carrying just half of her anvil collection....
 

analoguey

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Hehehe. I was wondering about Soviet cameras too -since they sent many more spacecraft by then.
So that answers The question.

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M Carter

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For wideangle the 65mm has very good reputation.

For portrait the 127mm is good (and very compact). The 90mm equivalent is the 180mm lens.

The 90mm lens is equivalent to 45mm and it's a do-it-all lens. Using the 90mm with the 6x4.5cm back, i find it perfect for portraits.

I've never been happy with the 90 for a classic portrait look. The 180, on the other hand - very nice lens. The 250 can give you a very nice compressed look.

Recently noticed there are plenty of the 140 soft focus lenses out there - with discs - for under $200. Really thinking of getting one to play around with.
 

analoguey

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The 90 is better for a full portrait /environmental portrait, seems to have just the right angle of view there. Plus the floating element.(kl)

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DcAnalogue

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Just bought a "New" (Mint) RB 67 Pro S (With 90mm C f/3,8 - Vivitar MC 2X Tele converter - 120 & 220 Pro SD Magazines) for less than half the price of a basic Hassie kit....
Already shot & developed a roll.
Almost all images were shot wide open...and I've never seen such I.Q. in other cameras.

Of course, Hassie is lighter e more compact but..... I didn't find the base kit (500 c/m & 80 mm) in the same mint conditions for less than 800 €.....
Don't tink I.Q. difference worth the price difference.....IMHO :smile:
 

Arklatexian

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Hassy vs RZ

Do you see the world in squares or rectangles?
When I look at my square ground glass, I see three formats: square, verticle rectangle and horizontal rectangle. At that time I make my choice and if I can't decide then, I can allways decide after the film is developed. This works on both the old Rolleicord and the old Hasselblad........Regards
 

alanrockwood

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I just bought an RB67 Pro S on ebay with two lenses (90mm and 180mm), two backs (120 and polaroid), and two finders (waist level and and 45 degree) for a total cost of $234.05, including shipping. It was formerly owned by a professional portrait photographer. The condition of the kit seems pretty good, all things considered.

I haven't used it yet, having only taking delivery on it yesterday, and I am still learning the mechanics. However, I think it's going to be a lot of fun. It's huge and heavy, and I expect to use it on a tripod, but I don't think it would be that bad as a hand-held camera under certain conditions, e.g. using the waist level finder.

By the way, I also have several Kiev 60 bodies (including a couple of the 4.5x6 versions), and several lenses for the Kiev, including one 80mm Zeiss Biometer, a wide angle lens (45mm) and a Portrait lens (150mm). There are a number of Zeiss lenses available for this camera at a much lower price than similar lenses for other cameras, like Hassies, and of course the Russian lenses are very inexpensive, and optical quality of the Russian lenses isn't bad. The prices on the Kiev cameras and lenses is pretty low, but the trick is to get body that actually works.
 
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film_man

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It's huge and heavy, and I expect to use it on a tripod, but I don't think it would be that bad as a hand-held camera under certain conditions, e.g. using the waist level finder.

Get yourself the adjustable left-hand grip and then be amazed at how easy it is to use handheld.
 

europanorama

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When I get home tonight, I'll take a look at how my 553 ELX is set up and how the lever moves throughout the range. Maybe I'll be able to post a photo tomorrow.
I have read that using motor ELX /RZ with winder and 120 is also a problem for film-flatness.
 

europanorama

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Mamyia Auto Xtl35 or Olympus OM1?

Sounds like an excellent book then. I recall that Bob Shell was an active poster at the now defunct (but excellent) Robert Monaghan's site.

Now, on topic, i'm new to the forum and have read most of this thread with interest.
And let me say that i'm a bit amazed that there are so many people on the Hasselblad camp.

The fact is that the Hasselblad 500 series are based on a design from 1957, the 500C. The Mamiya RB67 was introduced in 1970, 13 years later, and for me it's obvious that it was designed to be directly aimed as a competition to Hasselblad. It had been designed later and from the ground-up, so it had all the chances to be a superior product. The same was true of the Rolleiflex SL66: an improvement on the Hasselblad (and a great machine). So the RB67 was designed with the advantage of having the SL66 and the 500-series as a benchmarks.

Who were Mamiya in 1970? Mamiya was one of the most innovative camera designers, with products like the Mamiyaflex C (first practical TLR with interchangeable lenses) back in the late 1950s. They released the first SLR with electronic mounts in the early 80s. In 1971 they had just released the Auto XTL 35mm SLR, which was probably one of the most advanced SLRs on that time, and were selling their TLR like hotcakes. So we can say that in the early 70s they were already taking camera design seriously; had the money, and the ambition.

So they weren't average camera makers, and they had all the chances to improve on the Hasselblad. They delivered.

People brag about the Hassy being more compact and light than the RB and thus being more apt to be taken out rather than leave it sitting on the studio. Well, the problem is that the Hassy, at least the 500C and similar models, have a pretty strong camera vibration at the time of exposure. First time i tried one i was shocked (pun intended) by this. You can make a quick survey of Hasselblad 500-system camera owners and i'd say they would mostly agree that 1/60 or 1/125 is the minimum shutter speed to be clear on this problem.

The RB was specifically engineered to be absent of mirror shock, by using a centrifugal governor. The RB is perhaps the steadiest SLR i own and i have used it successfuly handheld at 1/8 with no problem. For me, this is an important advantage. For other people this may not be a deal-breaker, of course. The added camera weight also helps with stability; something that does not get mentioned too often when praising light cameras.

The revolving back. This is a god-send. Even more when i use the 6x4.5 back. Easier to shoot 6x4.5 portrait with an RB than with a "proper" 6x4,5 camera, because of this. All in all, vertical shots are more confortable than using a modern DSLR with a vertical grip, because the camera never rotates!

Now, on optics. The format is 6x7 rather than 6x6. This increase of film real estate gives a slight improvement on image quality. Or a significant one, if you don't shoot "square" 6x6 but always crop to 1:1.25 or 1:1.50 aspect ratio. So from the start there's an advantage to the RB. Of course, should you choose to shoot square 6x6, there is no advantage here.

Zeiss lenses are thought by some to be superior to the Mamiya offerings, but from the late 70s Mamiya drastically increased their skills on lens making and i'd say that for all practical purposes they are as good as they come. RZ and K/L lenses, from the 1990s, use advanced technology like anomalous dispersion glasses; so they were state-of-the art. I'm afraid there's too much mystique around the Zeiss name, and that clouds judgement. To me, at the golden era of Zeiss (50s-60s), Voigtlander made more interesting designs (and for a while were the only ones in Germany to own a computer for lens optimization -- which they rented to other manufacturers ), Schneider-Kreuznach made better lenses, and the first f2.8 Rolleiflex was intended to use the Xenotar, not the Planar, because the Rollei engineers considered it the better lens. Or so i've read. In any case, Kodak was at the very top of the optics world at the time, not Zeiss.

Marco Cavina's website is an eye opener regarding camera lens design history; i recommend it. Long story short: Towards the mid 70s, all the major lens manufacturers (Leitz, Zeiss, Schneider, Fuji, Nikon, Canon, Tomioka, Mamiya, etc) were doing computer-designed glasses with state-of-the art glass compounds, and were able to use custom-glasses and aspheric lenses as needed. Bottom line: For a late 70s lens of any of those manufacturers, the final quality will have a lot to do with what the manufacturing cost should be, and little to do with the brand. If any of those manufacturers wanted to build a very good lens, they were able to build it.

Reliability. I think Photo Engineer has said it all. I'll quote him for truth (QFT):



I own two RBs, one of them looks battered. It still works correctly.
Plus -something that does not get mentioned often- RBs were engineered to be easy to service. My camera tech likes them because of this.

All in all, once i ignore its size and weight, i consider the RB67 pro-S the most satisfying piece of camera gear i have owned. A masterpiece.
good i waited a bit longer until it was clear olympus OM1 will have a winder or motordrive n 1972 but mamyias winder never came. Later 1978 switched to contax due to lens-quality-problems and still using my Zeiss on EOS digital.
 

bluez

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I had a 500cm with an 80mm T* and a new screen in early 90's. Buying ekstra lenses was very expenseive, but it was a nice solid camera. I love german optics, and also had a Contax system.
The zeiss lenses are very solid and just buy adjusting you can feel that this is high end equipment.

However when i bought a used Mamiya super 645 ten years ago i discoverd that mamiya lenses are very good. ( I wasen't that found of squere 6x6)

So the last 2-3 years i have rebought medium format (645 pro and RZ67) and i have 7 lenses for the RZ and 8 for the mamiya 645. And i would like to say that the mamiya lenses are
all very good and solid. The RZ lenses are all pro lenses. And they are usually sold for a fair price on ebay. Great sharpnes and color rending.
 

Greg Heath

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The great camera conundrum -

I currently own a Hasselblad 500cm with tthe Zeiss 80mm 2.8. I love the camera, but I think I love the idea of the camera more. Its a great camera. A 1977 in excellent condition. The lens is sharp and I can produce great photos with it. However there are a few things that I dont like about it. The focusing isn't the quickest, and its a bit cumbersome even with the speed ring. The screen isn't the brightest and its sometimes hard to focus because its hard to see. And the accessories for it such as the Acute Matte D screen, and extra lenses are still SO EXPENSIVE, even today.

I'm thinking of selling it in order to purchase a Mamiya RZ67 kit. I used to shoot with a Mamiya C33 so I know that I definitely like the bellows focusing, and I like the brightness of the Mamiya screens. I can still make square images with a 6x7, but it will also lend itself well to traditional sizes as well.

My conundrum is whether I will really want to sell the Hasselblad or not. Its a classic and I may never find one in this condition again. I know that the equipment doesn't make the image, the photographer does, but will I regret it later on?

Thoughts? Decision making advice?

The Hasselblad 503cw I have. I love it. The lens is amazingly clear. I also own an RB67. The lenses or ok. Compared to the Hasselblad, well there is no comparison. The Hassy wins by a longshot for that "zeiss pop" crispness. But the RB or the RZ is good for is closeups. With the different lenses on the RB67 (RZ) closeups are just amazing. That's one reason I could never sell it. Plus it shoots in 6x7, which is easier to sell because it's more like a 35mm format. Sure I could get lens extensions for the Hasselblad but that is a hassle.

Both are great cameras in their own way.

Greg
 

flavio81

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Compared to the Hasselblad, well there is no comparison. The Hassy wins by a longshot for that "zeiss pop" crispness.

This is very interesting. Would you please list the exact lenses you were using? There are many series of RB-compatible lenses, with different technologies, designs, and coatings:

- The first series, which were single-coated and the wideangles had no floating system. And according to some the quality control of such lenses were not so good.
- The "C" series, which had a primitive multicoating; the 65mm was redesigned totally and now it had a floating system, and the 90mm was redesigned totally as well.
- The K/L series, much more modern in all respects, most designs are very different from the former series and state-of-the-art, with anomalous-dispersion glasses, apochromatic correction, etc.

The modern (mid 80s-onward) Zeiss lenses should be compared to the third iteration listed, otherwise the comparison is not so fair!

Anyways, the lens I used the most is the 90/3.8 "C" series Mamiya-sekor, and I find that it fully uses the resolution of Neopan Acros 100 film right to the very corners, which for me is all the performance I need and expect :smile:
 
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Sirius Glass

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This is very interesting. Would you please list the exact lenses you were using? There are many series of RB-compatible lenses, with different technologies, designs, and coatings:

- The first series, which were single-coated and the wideangles had no floating system-
- The "C" series, which had a primitive multicoating; the 50 and 65mm lenses had floating system, and the 90mm was redesigned totally.
- The K/L series, much more modern in all respects, most designs are different from the former series and state-of-the-art.

The modern (mid 80s-onward) Zeiss lenses should be compared to the third iteration listed, otherwise the comparison is not so fair!

Then the comparison will not be so fair, but that does not matter since the Zeiss lenses are superior anyway.
 

film_man

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The Hasselblad 503cw I have. I love it. The lens is amazingly clear. I also own an RB67. The lenses or ok. Compared to the Hasselblad, well there is no comparison. The Hassy wins by a longshot for that "zeiss pop" crispness. But the RB or the RZ is good for is closeups. With the different lenses on the RB67 (RZ) closeups are just amazing. That's one reason I could never sell it. Plus it shoots in 6x7, which is easier to sell because it's more like a 35mm format. Sure I could get lens extensions for the Hasselblad but that is a hassle.

Both are great cameras in their own way.

Greg

Having used lots of Hasselblad lenses and comparing with the KL lenses I have for the RB67 I'll say that the Hassy has that zeiss pop but for me that does not win as the Mamiya KL glass is just as detailed (if not more) yet with a more gentle look. I find the comparison very similar to Leica vs Zeiss glass in 35mm. The Zeiss is in your face with contrast and colour, the Leica is very detailed but easier on the eye.

Anyway, it is a personal preference thing, both systems are amazing.
 

Greg Heath

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I will have to look at my RB67 lenses and get the details. I believe they are the older lenses. I recall seeing some Portra Images on a Facebook RB67 group and the lens images are super clear.
So I am sure the later lenses are better built. I might have to shoot with them this week and run a roll thru just to see.

I better start doing some stretching exercises so I can pick up the camera without slipping a disk [emoji12]
 
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Sirius Glass

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I better start doing some stretching exercises so I can pick up the camera without slipping a disk [emoji12]

Good advice for both RZs and Hasselblads. Who wants to have to bother with a truss while taking photographs. :blink:
 

Kyle M.

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Both an RZ and a Hasselblad were on my "Holy Grail" list. I got both in 1 week about a month and a half ago. At first I was really impressed by both then the more I compared the images and the more I worked with them the more I realized I'm just not into 6x6. I had an early 80mm C lens for the 'Blad and the 110mm 2.8 for the RZ and I honestly could not tell that much of a difference in sharpness, alas in the end the 'Blad got sold and I still have the RZ and am very happy with it. If I ever feel the need to shoot 6x6 again I have a very nice little Franka folder with an excellent Schneider lens on it.
 

flavio81

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I better start doing some stretching exercises so I can pick up the camera without slipping a disk [emoji12]

I own two 90/3.8C lenses and it seems that they have different manufacture date. One of them is VERY heavy compared to the other!! And they seem identical. So it seems that they got lighter at some point in time.

With the 90/3.8C or the 127/3.8C (which is the smallest and lightest of the "C" line) and a waist finder, I find the RB67 not so heavy. Quite OK for carrying.
 

Kyle M.

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I own two 90/3.8C lenses and it seems that they have different manufacture date. One of them is VERY heavy compared to the other!! And they seem identical. So it seems that they got lighter at some point in time.

With the 90/3.8C or the 127/3.8C (which is the smallest and lightest of the "C" line) and a waist finder, I find the RB67 not so heavy. Quite OK for carrying.

The RZ is supposedly a full pound lighter than an RB, and I cannot guarantee it since I no longer have my RB but I certainly feel that my RZ with the 110mm 2.8 is a fair bit heavier than the RB with a 90mm 3.8C. Maybe the difference is in the lens? That 110mm is a hog of a lens thats for sure.
 

flavio81

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Maybe the difference is in the lens? That 110mm is a hog of a lens thats for sure.

Most likely!!

The 127/3.8 is a light lens (no pun intended). The 110 is 2.8 so it should have much bigger glass inside. It also has more lens elements than the 127/3.8.
The funny thing is that IIRC the 110/2.8 was the lightest RZ lens? Or at least the smallest then.
 
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