Hassled in Death Valley

[vet173]

One friend was asked by a ranger if he was a professional since my friend was using a tripod. My friend asked the ranger what his hobby was -- "fishing". So my friend asked the ranger if he had a boat. "Yes". Did the boat make him a professional? I think that was the end of that.

I think we have somthing here.

 

[blaze-on]

The sad and ironic thing is photographs taken by our predecessors are partially responsible for many of these lands having become national parks.

 

[Loose Gravel]

...but the beauty is in the land, not the photographer.

 

[patrickjames]

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't overreact to something like this. What the rangers need is education, not hassles. If everyone just printed out the permit requirements and put them in their camera bag situations like these would be easily solved. Writing letters to people only makes them resent photographers, and in the long run that is bad for everyone of us that wants to use a tripod (ergo film shooters). Don't ruin it for everyone by acting all "holier than thou." The rangers were just doing their job as they thought they needed to. If you had the permit requirements with you, I am sure they would leave you alone, as long as you were cordial. If you get defensive and confrontational, I guarantee you will lose, and you will ruin it for the rest of us when that ranger sees us doing the same thing, even if we are nice to them. The rangers are there to help you and protect you. Please educate them instead. You will be doing all of us a favor.

As an aside, being involved with commercial photography I understand the legalities of permitting. It is basically to ensure that there is insurance to cover any accidents on the set, or any damage done to the park, and the fees cover the cost of "policing" the activity. It is a good thing that they require permits. It is actually good for everyone. In this case it is just unfortunate that those rangers didn't understand exactly what the requirements/interpretation of the policy was.

Al the best.

Patrick

 

[Sirius Glass]

... If everyone just printed out the permit requirements and put them in their camera bag situations like these would be easily solved.

Done​

Steve

 

[Sparky]

It's not as though these rangers are out to hassle us and make our lives hard. Think about it. There's probably a lot of pressure from the parent corporation (NPS) to collect fees and fines, much as with municipal police. It's more about money collection than let's say, concern for the welfare of others (not to say that isn't part of their job - there's just more pressure to collect fines than not).

 

[Vaughn]

I think we have the responcibility to act responcibly when we photograph. Even AA got a ticket at Point Lobos for setting his tripod up on the wrong side of the protective fence.

It is all well and good to wave Section 14.1 at the Rangers...but we also have to satisfy the conditions of 3.1 before we are allowed the freedoms of 14.1...

3.1 General. The National Park Service may permit a special park use if the proposed activity will not:

Cause injury or damage to park resources; or
Be contrary to the purposes for which the park was established; or
Unreasonably impair the atmosphere of peace and tranquility maintained in wilderness, natural, historic or commemorative locations within the park; or
Unreasonably interfere with the interpretive, visitor service, or other program activities, or with the administrative activities of the NPS; or
Substantially impair the operation of public facilities or services of NPS concessioners or contractors; or
Present a clear and present danger to public health and safety; or
Result in significant conflict with other existing uses.

So, if you set your pod up in an area marked "Closed for plant rehab", in the middle of walkways, hassel tourists because they walk in front of your camera or are picnicing in an area you want to photograph, clip a few branches that are in your way, abusive to rangers checking you out, or the like, you will deserve and legally earn the ticket you get.

Vaughn

 

[patrickjames]

I think we have the responcibility to act responcibly when we photograph. .............., clip a few branches that are in your way, abusive to rangers checking you out, or the like, you will deserve and legally earn the ticket you get.

Vaughn

Well said, although that should go without saying. Respect the resources of our parks.

Patrick

 

[nc5p]

I looked and see I haven't responded. Oh yes, I have taken a tripod down into Carlsbad Caverns and the rangers were actually nice there. In that place there would be far more reason to crack down on the practice. What is it with Death Valley?

I have an idea, don't know if they do it there but White Sands National Monument has full moon nights where they stay open very late. You can bring your tripod then and nobody will say anything because everybody will be using one. Your camera will go unnoticed, too.

 

[removed account4]

It's not as though these rangers are out to hassle us and make our lives hard. Think about it. There's probably a lot of pressure from the parent corporation (NPS) to collect fees and fines, much as with municipal police. It's more about money collection than let's say, concern for the welfare of others (not to say that isn't part of their job - there's just more pressure to collect fines than not).

don't forget a few years ago
there was a photographer ( someone very famous )
who damaged a rock formation by lighting fires below it
so he could photograph it.

it is usually one or 2 people that do
things that the majority would never consider doing
that spoil things for the rest of us.

 

[naturephoto1]

I just hope that I do not have any problem at Crater Lake NP and any of the Oregon National Forests that I will be visiting in May with my Toho 4 X 5 and Mamiya 7II. I'll make sure to keep a printed NP permit requirements with me in hopes of no problem. I may try to take some Star Trails Photos in the Park if possible, so I will be taking photos when most others are absent from the park.

Rich

 

[Vaughn]

Well said, although that should go without saying. Respect the resources of our parks.

Patrick

One would hope so, but somtimes the urge to get that shot from that angle clouds our minds. A friend attended a lecture by the late Galen Rowel (sorry can't spell his last name). He showed a slide that was obviously taken from on top of a Mono Lake tufa formation. When asked about it he said one should not climb the tufa, but he inferred that it was okay for him to do because the photo was so good/important...or something to that affect.

I went off trail at Bryce this summer for a photo -- got it, but felt guilty about it and did not repeat the poor performance/judgement. Karma got me, too -- the photo was not as "great" as I had imagined it would be.

Vaughn

 

[eclarke]

Park rangers and security people must deal with hundreds of morons for every well-intentioned person. We would all probably spank a good kid who was in the midst of 100 juvenile delinquents...EC

 

[KenM]

don't forget a few years ago
there was a photographer ( someone very famous )
who damaged a rock formation by lighting fires below it
so he could photograph it.

That was Michael Fatali, it was the Delicate Arch, he used a fire starter log, and he's an idiot.

I would say he's more infamous than famous.

 

[jstraw]

That was Michael Fatali, it was the Delicate Arch, he used a fire starter log, and he's an idiot.

I would say he's more infamous than famous.

Yikes...what a clown. And THE FIRST FIVE WORDS from his website:

"I prefer only natural light..."

 

[Dave Wooten]

Come on Baby Light......

Yikes...what a clown. And THE FIRST FIVE WORDS from his website:

"I prefer only natural light..."

Fire is natural light.

 

[removed account4]

SNIP

That was Michael Fatali ....

yeah, that's the guy.
thanks for reminding me ...

john

 

[Jerry Basierbe]

If I remember correctly there was magazine running an offer for some of those prints then pulled the offer because of the controversy.

JB

That was Michael Fatali, it was the Delicate Arch, he used a fire starter log, and he's an idiot.

I would say he's more infamous than famous.

 

[jb17kx]

Hi all... First post.

When "commercial" work is reffered to in regulations, what do they actually define commercial as? I know that after some recent trouble with candid portraiture here in Australia, some research was done that proved that Australian law defines commercial photography as the use of photographs or images for advertisments or any other official promotion of a product or service, meaning that even if I were to sell my images for a profit, this would not be defind as commercial work.

Otherwise, I suppose that you (Gary892) took the option that you though was best. Sad that people can't even use slightly unsual equipment (Hell, my Canon AL-1 attracts attention, so I can only imagine what effect a 'Blad or Rolleiflex must have) for public photography.

With my personality though, I would have argued the point with him.
But I can't help myself in those situations. I'm far too confrontational.

 

[ronlamarsh]

Hasseled

I've drug my 4X5 with tripod etc all over national parks with never a second glance from an offical. If anything they have gone out of their way to direct me to little known area's for some good shots.
Conclusion: they were power drunk part timers and or just didn't like you.....kind of like the dog that is friendly to everyone but you.
for what it is worth, I sat out on a street corner to get an evening shot of a new city hall around here that has absolutely stunning architecture. I had my tripod out with 4X5 and sat patiently for the sun to go down. I was passed by no less that 6 police cars and as far as I could tell they didn't even see me!
When I am in Eastern Washington on the back roads of the wheat country with my setup out and ready often times the state patrol will drive by and ask if I need help as do the locals. my advice is go some place friendly.

 

[Ranger Bob]

So very sorry to be so late on Mr Goldfarbs request for my comment. Excuse: reformatted my hard drive back in March and kinda forgot to redo my bookmarks. Anyway, the Rangers who challenged you were wrong. If you are in the park, as a visitor, you can use a tripod to do your photography. You can even use some lighting or light modifiers. If it is not commercial. One of my collateral duties is monitoring permits for commercial still, video and film crews. They must have a permit as do workshops. When I am asked the same thing as the original poster was by Rangers in other parks, I show them a copy of the Directors Order. The last time I was asked, the Ranger got huffy, I showed her my DOI ID card and asked her to radio the District Ranger because I had a complaint and if they weren't available, the Chief Ranger. She did, and when the DR showed up, he chewed her out in her rig(I could hear it), then apologized to me for the hassle. Unless you KNOW you are in the right, I wouldn't try that one. Sorry for your hassle in DV and I will be more than happy to discuss this in a private message.

 

[servojohn]

Interestingly long thread.

I returned last month from a big driving vacation out in the Southwest, stopping at Big Bend NP, Ft. Davis(TX)SP, Guadalupe NP(TX), Carlsbad Caverns NP, Valley of Fires Nat. Rec. Area, Grand Canyon NP, Monument Valley NP(except it's "Navajo", not National), and Mesa Verde, NP. I lugged my Pentax 6x7 gear and a large Bogen Tripod around, and wasn't hassled once.
Perhaps Ranger Bob's message got into the NP system.
Perhaps we need to carry laminated copies of the up-to-date Director's Order attached to our vests, bags, or tripods.

Best regards,

John

 

[Vanishing Point Ent.]

It's been us vs. THEM, for as long as I've been alive.

I have read all the responses up to this point and I need to shed some light why I did not argue with the ranger.
I was told not too long ago by a NPS Ranger in Joshua Tree Nation Park, that if you get a ticket on National Park Land that ticket stays with you forever. So if you ever get stopped by any police officer it shows up as a federal alert. I have no way of checking to see if that is true or not because I know no one I trust who can confirm that.

Secondly, when I was 22 I am now 56, I was traveling through Texas, nothing against Texas it's just where this happened, I was pulled over for speeding. Yes I was speeding 10 miles over the speed limit. The officer escorted me back to a house that turned out to be the Judge's house and I was charged right then and there. The "Bail" if you will, was $22.50. At that time that was a lot of money to me. Fortunately I had enough money to pay and they let me leave. The judge even gave me a receipt.

Since that day, I have a level of distrust of anyone who has the power to throw me in jail justified or not. So I never confront an officer or a park ranger.

Or to any other LITTLE SHIT, that comes along.
This person, has it exactly right. It doesn't do you any good, to prove THEM wrong,
that just makes THEM mad.

In other words, in your mind, just say " Heil Hitler ", & do what ever the " Little Hitler " tells you to do.

This isn't anything recent.
It's been us vs. THEM, for as long as I've been alive & I'm 54 now.