Has anyone used Ultrafine ECO Black, White, and Green Film Developer

Is there a reason for mixing up more XTOL than you need? For example, you have 2 rolls of film to develop and maybe won't have another roll to develop for a week or so? I guess I don't understand the need to mix up 5 liters and then worry about shelf life when it's not used.

Also...the 1 liter bottles. Are these dark bottles or regular transparent bottles?

KerrKid said:

Is there a reason for mixing up more XTOL than you need? For example, you have 2 rolls of film to develop and maybe won't have another roll to develop for a week or so? I guess I don't understand the need to mix up 5 liters and then worry about shelf life when it's not used.

Also...the 1 liter bottles. Are these dark bottles or regular transparent bottles?

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There are many people on this board and even in this particular thread who know much more about chemistry than I do, but I'll take a stab at answering this anyway.

When you buy a batch of Xtol you'll see that it comes as a loose powder in a package (actually two packages) that is supposed to be mixed with a specified amount of water (5 liters, in the case of Xtol). The powder is composed of several separate components -- i.e. different chemicals -- whose ratios are very carefully established by the manufacturer. So as I have always understood it, if you tried to take, say, half the powder and mix it with 2.5 liters of water, you can't guarantee that you get exactly half of all the different chemicals that are in the powder. They may not be distributed evenly in the powder. That's been my assumption, at least.

I'm sure people have tried mixing half the powder, or a quarter of it, because human beings do such things, but I've never heard of anyone doing it successfully. Everyone I'm aware of mixes the whole package of powder at one time. Several well-known powdered developers are available in smaller batches -- i.e. enough powder to make one liter. That's less of a storage burden, obviously. But Xtol is no longer available in that smaller size. (A similar developer from Adox, XT-3, is available in packets to make one liter, I believe.)

This is a big difference between powdered chemicals and liquid chemicals. With liquids, you can measure out a small portion of it -- i.e. just the amount you need at that moment -- and mix it with water, then develop your film or paper. The logical guess for a non-chemist like myself is that in liquid form, the separate component chemicals are distributed evenly within the liquid.

As for storage bottles, you can get both dark (usually black or brown) or white plastic bottles (and maybe other colors?) in various sizes from photography retailers. Freestyle Photo, which is a sponsor of this site I believe, sells them. A lot of photographers also use brown glass bottles. Here's Freestyle's bottle page:

KerrKid said:

Is there a reason for mixing up more XTOL than you need? For example, you have 2 rolls of film to develop and maybe won't have another roll to develop for a week or so? I guess I don't understand the need to mix up 5 liters and then worry about shelf life when it's not used.

Also...the 1 liter bottles. Are these dark bottles or regular transparent bottles?

Click to expand...

villagephotog said:

There are many people on this board and even in this particular thread who know much more about chemistry than I do, but I'll take a stab at answering this anyway.

When you buy a batch of Xtol you'll see that it comes as a loose powder in a package (actually two packages) that is supposed to be mixed with a specified amount of water (5 liters, in the case of Xtol). The powder is composed of several separate components -- i.e. different chemicals -- whose ratios are very carefully established by the manufacturer. So as I have always understood it, if you tried to take, say, half the powder and mix it with 2.5 liters of water, you can't guarantee that you get exactly half of all the different chemicals that are in the powder. They may not be distributed evenly in the powder. That's been my assumption, at least.

I'm sure people have tried mixing half the powder, or a quarter of it, because human beings do such things, but I've never heard of anyone doing it successfully. Everyone I'm aware of mixes the whole package of powder at one time. Several well-known powdered developers are available in smaller batches -- i.e. enough powder to make one liter. That's less of a storage burden, obviously. But Xtol is no longer available in that smaller size. (A similar developer from Adox, XT-3, is available in packets to make one liter, I believe.)

This is a big difference between powdered chemicals and liquid chemicals. With liquids, you can measure out a small portion of it -- i.e. just the amount you need at that moment -- and mix it with water, then develop your film or paper. The logical guess for a non-chemist like myself is that in liquid form, the separate component chemicals are distributed evenly within the liquid.

As for storage bottles, you can get both dark (usually black or brown) or white plastic bottles (and maybe other colors?) in various sizes from photography retailers. Freestyle Photo, which is a sponsor of this site I believe, sells them. A lot of photographers also use brown glass bottles. Here's Freestyle's bottle page:

Darkroom > Darkroom Accessories > Bottles

Bottles at Freestyle Photo & Imaging Supplies

www.freestylephoto.biz

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Villagephotog nailed it. PE often advised against mixing partial batches for the same reason. All one has to do is put XTOL or any other developer in bottles or bags without air. I have stock XTOL that has been stored safely for years in StopLossBags®. www.stoplossbags.com

Sirius Glass said:

Villagephotog nailed it. PE often advised against mixing partial batches for the same reason. All one has to do is put XTOL or any other developer in bottles or bags without air. I have stock XTOL that has been stored safely for years in StopLossBags®. www.stoplossbags.com

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KerrKid, the "PE" that Sirius is referring to was a frequent contributor to these forums for many years, whose forum name was "Photo Engineer". He's unfortunately now deceased, if I'm not mistaken. I believe he was a chemist at Kodak for many decades. I know his contributions to this forum were very widely respected and appreciated.

Anyway, if he said not to mix partial batches of powdered chemicals, that's good enough for me.

villagephotog said:

KerrKid, the "PE" that Sirius is referring to was a frequent contributor to these forums for many years, whose forum name was "Photo Engineer". He's unfortunately now deceased, if I'm not mistaken. I believe he was a chemist at Kodak for many decades. I know his contributions to this forum were very widely respected and appreciated.

Anyway, if he said not to mix partial batches of powdered chemicals, that's good enough for me.

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PE was Ron (actually Rowland) Mowrey, and sadly he has passed.
Among other things, he was one of the named patent holders for the key patent registered in respect to the last version of Kodachrome - the K-14 version.
And for a very long time he had the highest post count on the forum.
He was very generous with his knowledge - both in the forums, and the PM system.

KerrKid said:

Is there a reason for mixing up more XTOL than you need? For example, you have 2 rolls of film to develop and maybe won't have another roll to develop for a week or so? I guess I don't understand the need to mix up 5 liters and then worry about shelf life when it's not used.

Also...the 1 liter bottles. Are these dark bottles or regular transparent bottles?

Click to expand...

KerrKid, have a look at the views expressed in a recent thread about what I assume to be a similar situation with regard to D76 i.e. the so-called one shot method. I can't recall its title.

OK in the case of Xtol it is 2 packets mixed together as is ID11 compared to D76 so am I comparing apples(D76) to pears( ID11 and Xtol)?

The one shot thread did at one point turn its attention to doing the same with ID11 and if I recall correctly, relistan had something interesting to say about what might be involved about one shot developing with ID11

In the case of Xtol the actual method or so I would have thought, is to divide each pack into the amounts needed to develop one film, be that 135 or 120 but the bigger problem is to ensure that after mixing each pack by carefully stirring it, you end up with the right portions of each of the constituent ingredients or as near as damn it

It will come as no surprise that some predict the inevitability of failure while others state that they have not had a failure yet after many films developed this way

On an entirely humorous note, the discussion for some reason made me think of Clint's "Are you feeling lucky punk?" scene

In the case of "one shot" development the question is : Are the odds against success as bad as Clint's punk who may have no bullets left so is doomed to failure or to a situation where occasionally the punk has only 5 bullets left so has a slight risk of failure on his next shot but more often that not still has all 6 bullets so is guaranteed success?

pentaxuser

FWIW, "one shot" developing is almost universally used to mean something different than how pentaxuser is using it in post #56!
Don't try to divide the powders with X-Tol. You can't safely mix the two bags together - the contents will interact with each other when in powder form, and it is impractical to try to divide each packet - particularly the small second one - into the at least 20, and possibly as many as 70 separate small amounts that you would want if you were going to try that method.

Ah, I understand now why both pouches need to be used in their entirety. No problem. Also, the StopLoss Bags make a lot of sense, but if I'm storing developer for more than a couple of months, I think that indicates the need to shoot more film.

Could Ilford's recommendation of DD-X for beginner developers be based on the fact that it is a liquid? It is, otherwise, a costly choice.

KerrKid said:

Ah, I understand now why both pouches need to be used in their entirety. No problem. Also, the StopLoss Bags make a lot of sense, but if I'm storing developer for more than a couple of months, I think that indicates the need to shoot more film.

Could Ilford's recommendation of DD-X for beginner developers be based on the fact that it is a liquid? It is, otherwise, a costly choice.

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Yes, I'd guess that for many people single solution liquid developers like DDX are the simplest to use. They are for me.

But I don't think you should necessarily be put off by powdered developers. The mainstream ones that I've used are not hard, per se, to mix and work with. That's especially true if you have a convenient space with decent ventilation to do your chemical mixing. Many folks here have nice plumbed and ventilated darkrooms, bless them. I'd be content with a typical household utility room with a sink and counter, but I don't have even that.

And yes, if you shoot a reasonable amount of film on a consistent cadence, you don't have to worry very much about chemistry going bad. You will be mixing up powders more regularly, however, so that convenient space to do it will be even nicer to have.

And chemistry going bad is not a big disaster, anyway, IMO. It's just a little wasteful, which nags at me, and potentially a minor disposal issue. Bottom line, you could very well find that using a powdered developer like Xtol has little or no downside for you. Many people enjoy that happy state of being.

KerrKid said:

Ah, I understand now why both pouches need to be used in their entirety. No problem. Also, the StopLoss Bags make a lot of sense, but if I'm storing developer for more than a couple of months, I think that indicates the need to shoot more film.

Could Ilford's recommendation of DD-X for beginner developers be based on the fact that it is a liquid? It is, otherwise, a costly choice.

Click to expand...

It may indicate the need to change developer to one that is known to last much longer than Xtol

I think that StopLoss bags may be similar to Winebags that I used to use for Xtol 5L . I have gotten nearly 2 years from a winebag but even that may not be long enough for you to use 5L's worth of film - only you will know this from your expected use of film. There is always Adox 1L equivalent of Xtol as the alternative and as a result of Adox's competition now on the Xtol front maybe SinoPromise will introduce a 1L bag - you never know

Matt, I struggled to find a phrase that better described an otherwise lengthy sentence to describe using only enough powder at a time for one film from a pack or two that the maker or makers require mixing all the content's at once

Anyone including Matt come up with a short phrase that describes the practice?

pentaxuser

pentaxuser said:

It may indicate the need to change developer to one that is known to last much longer than Xtol

I think that StopLoss bags may be similar to Winebags that I used to use for Xtol 5L . I have gotten nearly 2 years from a winebag but even that may not be long enough for you to use 5L's worth of film - only you will know this from your expected use of film. There is always Adox 1L equivalent of Xtol as the alternative and as a result of Adox's competition now on the Xtol front maybe SinoPromise will introduce a 1L bag - you never know

Matt, I struggled to find a phrase that better described an otherwise lengthy sentence to describe using only enough powder at a time for one film from a pack or two that the maker or makers require mixing all the content's at once

Anyone including Matt come up with a short phrase that describes the practice?

pentaxuser

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Fractional?

pentaxuser said:

It may indicate the need to change developer to one that is known to last much longer than Xtol

I think that StopLoss bags may be similar to Winebags that I used to use for Xtol 5L . I have gotten nearly 2 years from a winebag but even that may not be long enough for you to use 5L's worth of film - only you will know this from your expected use of film. There is always Adox 1L equivalent of Xtol as the alternative and as a result of Adox's competition now on the Xtol front maybe SinoPromise will introduce a 1L bag - you never know

Matt, I struggled to find a phrase that better described an otherwise lengthy sentence to describe using only enough powder at a time for one film from a pack or two that the maker or makers require mixing all the content's at once

Anyone including Matt come up with a short phrase that describes the practice?

pentaxuser

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I have stored Stock XTOL in StopLossBags® for over five years and never had a problem. It is most important, regardless of your storage method to get all the air out of the storage container.

I am a fan of PC-TEA. It is often compared to Xtol and sometimes referred to as a poor man's Xtol that's not quite as good. The knocks are that it has a bit less film speed, greater grain and a slight base fog compared to Xtol. But the stock solution has a much better shelf life than Xtol. It is a convenient liquid, and is economical if home-mixed. Because the stock is concentrated, it takes less storage space than five liters of Xtol. It's understandable to relate it to Xtol since both have similar developing agents and are eco-friendly.

But I think the comparison is unfair in some ways. First off, Xtol type developers are arguably the world's best general purpose developers with a unmatched combination of film speed, sharpness and fine grain. All other mortal developers could be said be lacking something in comparison.

I have not seen it tested, but I think the acutance (aspect of sharpness) of PC-TEA is excellent, as is characteristic of ascorbate developers. I think it may be more apt compare it to high-acutance developers than so-called solvent developers. (TEA has only a slight solvent effect) It has its own look that is different than Xtol. I think it is produces great skin tones. Those that believe that Xtol is lacking in contrast might find that PC-TEA is a different situation. As mentioned, there are similar developers mixed in glycol that might have finer grain and glycol may be easier to find in Europe. Using higher dilutions of PC-TEA like 1+100 also mitigates grain.

The makers of Black White and Green may have added a restrainer for fear that the slight base fog of straight PC-TEA would disturb users. But I have heard knowledgeable people say that the fog makes no difference except with alternative printing. The restrainer may lower the sharpness a tad, which I find a bit disappointing because I think sharpness is one of PC-TEA's claims to fame. The advantage of mixing it at home is one can choose to use or not use restrainer.

The holy grail has been to produce an Xtol type developer in a liquid, i.e., the performance and eco-friendliness of Xtol and with the shelf life and convenience of HC-110. Some Photrio members have pursued that quest. PC-TEA and Black White and Green, do not attain the complete grail, but could be said to come pretty close.

Try this phrase: "Dividing powder into several smaller equal amounts, all of which have all the ingredients in the correct amounts and are homogenous".
And afterwards: "dividing powder equally."
I've got a 1 litre bottle of X-Tol replenisher that I mixed up in 2019 and then misplaced. It hasn't been opened or used since then. I'm going to first check for "death" with a clip test, and then if it remains alive, try it on a test roll, and see whether, when 125m ml is used 1+1 one-shot, it shows good activity.
If probably will.
But as I've said to KerrKid and others, even if you end up using 3 litres of your 5 litres each 6 months, X-Tol is economical and practical, and the amount of waste isn't very large.

Sirius Glass said:

I have stored Stock XTOL in StopLossBags® for over five years and never had a problem. It is most important, regardless of your storage method to get all the air out of the storage container.

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Now that is really fantastic. It may be that StopLoss bags are better than what were used winebags in my case i.e. they had all held wine for possibly a few weeks at least before I bought them and rank the wine So in the case of StopLoss I assume the bags have never been used before purchase and it may be that they are better made

They may resemble the kind of homebrew winebags you can buy in the U.K. that are designed to be used several times but as I have never heard of these bags in the U.K. a link to them would be useful for me

Thanks

pentaxuser

If nothing else, these developers with a long shelf life can be a back-up or alternative to one's main developer. It's like how Rodinal can sit on your shelf for ages, but when you need it will work, no powder to mix up. If we unexpectedly run out of regular developer, we can keep working using the backup. Or maybe there is an occasional situation where alternate developer would work especially well.