Has anybody here ever successfully exposed and developed 60+ year old Tri-X pack film?

[Zathras]

Hello everybody,

I just received an extremely clean 3 1/4 x 4 1/4 RB Series D Graflex. Included with the camera was a film pack adapter and ten 3x4 Kodak film packs. Seven Tri-X packs, two Plus-X packs and one Super-XX pack all expired in 1956 or 1957. I'm planning to play with the film to see what happens, but I'm curious if anybody ever did this and got usable negs. I was thinking of developing the film in DK-50, since it's a recommended developer in the data sheet that came with the film. I figured I'd go with with DK-50 since it already contains a restrainer and can produce a good contrast range that I thought might be helpful with old film. I'll start with the recommended and time and film speed and bracket like hell. I don't know if I'll get anything or not, but I thought it would be fun to try. I'm not expecting any miracles here but I thought I'd see if anyone has gone down this road before, and if so, what were your experiences like?

 

[grat]

I believe even the Great Machine would be challenged by this task.

 

[Zathras]

Good one! Zathras must ask Draal for helpings with film!

 

[Вormental_old]

@Zathras I tried using film that expired in late 70s, but before loading a roll into my camera, I decided to waste one and opened it up. As I was inspecting it I noticed that the emulsion was chipping with tiny particles falling off. I decided that I don't want this dust inside my camera and threw it away. This was some kind of a soviet film, and I'm sure its quality was worse than Kodak's, but still...

 

[Donald Qualls]

Fortunately, @Bormental experience isn't the norm; usually, even 50-60+ year old film is physically okay, though it's very likely to have significant fog if it wasn't stored frozen for at least most of the time.

If you haven't already, you might want to look at the article I've been referring people to on cold developing to control fog. Short version: the author found that many badly fogged films can be made usable, at least for fooling around purposes, by chilling the developer to around 50F and adding several drops of 1% benzotriazole solution. The beauty of pack film for this is that you can "rob the pack" to pull out one or two exposed sheets while leaving the rest for later use, test for speed and fog, and then use the rest of the film (of that type -- Plus-X, Super XX, and Tri-X are likely to age somewhat differently) with the data you've found.

Do be aware that pack film is "oversize" compared to sheet film of the same nominal format, and much more flexible even than 120 (because it had to be pulled around a sharp 180 degree bend in the pack when you pull the tab), so you may need to improvise a bit for development.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

OP might want to sell the antique rolls to those who're interested in such antique pieces for a good price and buy fresh film with that money.

 

[Donald Qualls]

OP might want to sell the antique rolls to those who're interested in such antique pieces for a good price and buy fresh film with that money.

That would be a great option, Raghu, except this is pack film, which hasn't been made in forty-some years -- probably longer than that for 3x4 size (4x5 Tri-X was the last Kodak produced, and production ended when the two women who'd stuffed the packs for many years retired around 1980). Fresh sheet film is hard enough to come by in 3x4 -- there's probably only Fomapan 100, no other choices -- and unless you've got a heavily modified DeLorean that you can be sure will start, and either a supply of plutonium or a Mr. Fusion, you aren't going to get 3x4 film packs except by exceptional good fortune.

 

[Steve Roberts]

I can never resist this kind of thing. The results may not be spectacular but could be interesting. A bit like a horse playing a piano - it may not do it very well but it's amazing that it can do it at all.
Just before lockdown I bought a heap of photographic equipment and materials at a local auction. This included several packs of Kodak paper which were priced in pounds, shillings and pence, i.e. before the UK became fully decimal in 1971. For three years before that, most items were priced in both £sd and decimal, so I'd put the paper at early to mid-1960s. The darkroom has been out of action for a few months but should be up and running in the next week or so and I'll have a chance to play around with this 55 year old paper.
Looking forward to an update from Zathras.
Steve

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

Fresh sheet film is hard enough to come by in 3x4 -- there's probably only Fomapan 100, no other choices

Shanghai GP3 sheet film in any desired format is available through the annual sheet film campaign organized by Zhou Pierre on Facebook. GP3 is a nice cheap film.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Shanghai GP3 sheet film in any desired format is available through the annual sheet film campaign organized by Zhou Pierre on Facebook. GP3 is a nice cheap film.

The same is probably true for the annual Ilford special cutting (usually spoken of as the "Ultra Large Format" event, but my understanding is, for the minimum order, they'll cut any size you like). I was referring to "buy it when you need it" stock at common suppliers like B&H or Freestyle -- where 2x3, 6.5x9, and 3x4 are stocked in one emulsion: Fomapan 100 or (same film, different label on the box) .EDU Ultra 100. Of course, there's always X-ray film, which can be recut under safelight by the user; Ilford 80 Ortho is also sold in 4x5, which can be recut under safelight by those who need to do so, and some have used other brands of ortho lith film (which produces "normal" contrast when processed in non-lith film or paper developers).

 

[gordrob]

Take a couple of exposures with the Tri-X Pack and rate the film at 100 and 200 ISO and then remove these two sheets from the pack and process them in a tray to see how the film responds. When removing the film (robbing the pack) be careful because the film pack is made of metal and has thin sharp edges. Instruction for this process are in the film pack. A result of the process is that you may find some small black pieces of paper floating in the developer from the way the film is attached to the pack.Start with tray developing because the film is an odd size and flimsy to load in a tank - the Yankee tank and the Nikor 4x5 tanks will adjust for film packs. If DK-50 doesn't provide good results try HC110 and possibly go the cold developer route. I am sitting on about a dozen 2x3 film packs as well as an assortment of 3x4 and 4x5 packs. Lots of film to shoot and so little time to do it.
Gord

 

[Nokton48]

I've been buying unopened 4x5 Tri-X filmpacks, I have a few from 1981 (last year I think) and a few from 1976. Will rob and test development in a tray maybe HC110 but I do have a lot of DK50 and DK50 replenisher also.

I do have some Benzo I will be mixing up also. I fondly remember shooting 4x5 Tri-X filmpacks twenty five years ago with great results.

Snow on Wrought Iron by Nokton48, on Flickr

Sinar Norma 4x5 210mm f5.6 Nikkor-W Tri-x expired filmpack D76 1:1 8x10 Arista #2 RC Omega DII 180mm Componon Multigrade dev

 

[Bill Burk]

@Zathras

Hello my Pacifica ex-pat. I tested one roll of Super-XX expired 1954.

In D-76 I had to rate the film at EI 2 to rise above the fog. I did get images but still the contrast is so low I am considering other developers.

I bought a 100 foot bulk roll of Super-XX expired 1952 and initially am getting about the same thing.

I bought a couple packages of D-19

I will try Dektol or maybe even some A B Lith developer.

I don't plan on reducing the fog. But I need contrast enough for silver gelatin printing.

Once I get sufficient contrast, I'll determine the speed based on the 0.10 above base+fog.

 

[Zathras]

Thanks for the help here. Realistically speaking, not expecting miracles, I just thought of trying it for fun. If I get anything that can be printed, I'll post that here.

 

[Zathras]

The same is probably true for the annual Ilford special cutting (usually spoken of as the "Ultra Large Format" event, but my understanding is, for the minimum order, they'll cut any size you like). I was referring to "buy it when you need it" stock at common suppliers like B&H or Freestyle -- where 2x3, 6.5x9, and 3x4 are stocked in one emulsion: Fomapan 100 or (same film, different label on the box) .EDU Ultra 100. Of course, there's always X-ray film, which can be recut under safelight by the user; Ilford 80 Ortho is also sold in 4x5, which can be recut under safelight by those who need to do so, and some have used other brands of ortho lith film (which produces "normal" contrast when processed in non-lith film or paper developers).

Thanks Donald,
I was considering Ilford until I saw their prices for 3x4 film, Sadly, it's much more cost effective to buy 4x5 and cut it to size. I did manage to order some 3x4 Adox CHS-100 from Fotoimpex and it's on the way as we speak. I'm also going to give Shanghai a try out of curiosity. I've heard good and bad things about the film, but I've also seen nice results with it. Hopefully I'll get results I like with Shanghai, as it is the least expensive option out there for 3x4 film at this time.

 

[Zathras]

That would be a great option, Raghu, except this is pack film, which hasn't been made in forty-some years -- probably longer than that for 3x4 size (4x5 Tri-X was the last Kodak produced, and production ended when the two women who'd stuffed the packs for many years retired around 1980). Fresh sheet film is hard enough to come by in 3x4 -- there's probably only Fomapan 100, no other choices -- and unless you've got a heavily modified DeLorean that you can be sure will start, and either a supply of plutonium or a Mr. Fusion, you aren't going to get 3x4 film packs except by exceptional good fortune.

Foma Pan would definitely be an option, but I haven't seen it offered in 3x4.

 

[Zathras]

@Zathras

Hello my Pacifica ex-pat. I tested one roll of Super-XX expired 1954.

In D-76 I had to rate the film at EI 2 to rise above the fog. I did get images but still the contrast is so low I am considering other developers.

I bought a 100 foot bulk roll of Super-XX expired 1952 and initially am getting about the same thing.

I bought a couple packages of D-19

I will try Dektol or maybe even some A B Lith developer.

I don't plan on reducing the fog. But I need contrast enough for silver gelatin printing.

Once I get sufficient contrast, I'll determine the speed based on the 0.10 above base+fog.

Hi Bill,

Thanks for posting. If you get any results, post them here. I'd love to see what you get. Donald Qualls posted a very interesting
link in one of his replies in this thread, which may be of interest to you as well, so I'll repost here, https://www.diyphotography.net/how-i-removed-base-fog-from-old-film-stocks/

By the way, have you seen any mountain lions recently? My sister lives at our parent's place on Alicante Drive and
told me her next door neighbor saw one in his driveway last Tuesday night when he was going to put out his garbage cans.
He wisely decided to go back inside and waited until later to do so. I was over there the next day and we found mountain lion
tracks in her back yard.

Mike

 

[Zathras]

@Zathras I tried using film that expired in late 70s, but before loading a roll into my camera, I decided to waste one and opened it up. As I was inspecting it I noticed that the emulsion was chipping with tiny particles falling off. I decided that I don't want this dust inside my camera and threw it away. This was some kind of a soviet film, and I'm sure its quality was worse than Kodak's, but still...

Hi Bormental,
I'm approaching this with low expectations, more for fun than anything else. If I get anything out
of the film, I'd like to give a print of the result to the person I got the camera from.

 

[Zathras]

I can never resist this kind of thing. The results may not be spectacular but could be interesting. A bit like a horse playing a piano - it may not do it very well but it's amazing that it can do it at all.
Just before lockdown I bought a heap of photographic equipment and materials at a local auction. This included several packs of Kodak paper which were priced in pounds, shillings and pence, i.e. before the UK became fully decimal in 1971. For three years before that, most items were priced in both £sd and decimal, so I'd put the paper at early to mid-1960s. The darkroom has been out of action for a few months but should be up and running in the next week or so and I'll have a chance to play around with this 55 year old paper.
Looking forward to an update from Zathras.
Steve

When I was 12, my 7th grade art teacher gave me a 500 sheet box of 8x10 Kodak AZO paper that expired about 12 years before I was born.
I made loads of prints with that paper, including most of the contact sheets i made when I shot for my high school newspaper. I got very good results from that paper.
I gave that box and the remaining paper, about 50 sheets, to my journalism teacher before I went in the Navy. I knew that the students would put it to good use.

 

[Bill Burk]

Hi Bill,

Thanks for posting. If you get any results, post them here. I'd love to see what you get. Donald Qualls posted a very interesting
link in one of his replies in this thread, which may be of interest to you as well, so I'll repost here, https://www.diyphotography.net/how-i-removed-base-fog-from-old-film-stocks/

By the way, have you seen any mountain lions recently? My sister lives at our parent's place on Alicante Drive and
told me her next door neighbor saw one in his driveway last Tuesday night when he was going to put out his garbage cans.
He wisely decided to go back inside and waited until later to do so. I was over there the next day and we found mountain lion
tracks in her back yard.

Mike

That experiment by Daniel Keating is exactly what I am using as a baseline of what's possible.

I haven't seen mountain lions personally, but they are sure around.

 

[Donald Qualls]

I guess another option for that 3x4 camera is to get some glass plate holders (or convert some film holders) and order plates from J. Lane -- the ASA 25 ortho plates ought to be reasonably close to shooting with film.

 

[Steve Roberts]

art teacher gave me a 500 sheet box of 8x10 Kodak AZO paper that expired about 12 years before I was born.

Though I'd like to say that my early/mid 1960s paper was made 12 years before I was born, sadly that's not the case :-(
The paper's price stickers label it as having been bought at a shop in Plymouth (UK) called Fernley Wallis where I used to buy infra red Ektachrome. The photographic shop hasn't existed for 40+ years and the premises are now, inevitably, occupied by a coffee shop.
Steve

 

[Zathras]

I guess another option for that 3x4 camera is to get some glass plate holders (or convert some film holders) and order plates from J. Lane -- the ASA 25 ortho plates ought to be reasonably close to shooting with film.

Hi Donald, I was able to order ADOX CHS-100, the new version, from Fotoimpex in Germany. I was going to order it from Freestyle
but they want more than double for it than what I bought it for. Shipping wasn't cheap cheap but I bought enough to make it worthwhile
and it should be here in a few days. The money I saved was considerable. I'm also going to try the Shanghai film. If I need faster film
I'll just buy 4x5 and cut it down to 3x4 as needed. The upside of that is that I will also have 4x5 on hand.

 

[rjbuzzclick]

I've shot a couple of Tri-X film packs from the 1950s.

Here's an example shot at an EI of 3 and developed in Rodinal 1+25 for 12:00. 5x7 print on AristaEDU RC glossy paper at grade 3.

This was actually an exposure error on my part as I usually shoot these at an EI of 12. It doesn't show in this shot, but on my other negatives from the pack there is some slight mottling that can be seen in areas that are more even in tone. Generally they all came out pretty well. I still have two packs left.

Film packs are kind of fun to shoot, though a little more involved to develop. I developed using hangers, but had to cut them down as they were a bit too long as mentioned above.

For comparison, here's a shot on Kodak Royal Pan, also expired in 1957, shot at an EI of 12 and developed in Rodinal 1+25 for 12:00. The film didn't age as well as the Tri-X above, but an interesting result nonetheless. 8x10 print on expired Kodak Polycontrast F at grade 3.

 

[Kodachromeguy]

I can't comment on 60-year-old Tri-X, but 50-year-old GAF (Ansco) Versapan film packs proved to be amazingly viable:
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...eloped-gaf-versapan-film.175004/#post-2280110