Harman Technology vs. Ilford Photo vs. Ilford Imaging...what's in a name?

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MattKing

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Mod. notice: this thread was split off of another one: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/first-roll-of-harman-phoenix-photos-up.203317
It started to form an extensive diversion, and to keep the original thread focused on the specific film product, the present thread was branched off. The branch-off point on the original thread is at approx. post #327.


Good point, I forgot that, I'm so used to associating Harman with Ilford-branded great B&W film.

On Photrio, a bunch of people insist on using Ilford to refer to things that quite properly should be referred to as Harman.
In the rest of the world, most people don't even know what you are talking about when you refer to "Ilford Black and White film".
Photrio is not the target market.
 
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Roger Cole

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Most people when they see my film cameras ask, "can you still get film?" Black and white would probably blow their mind that it's even still available.
 
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Most of the world doesn't even know what photographic film is, and of those who do, most of them don't know there is a black and white version.
 

Dustin McAmera

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I don't follow the obsession with distinguishing between these two names. We know (I think?) that it's only a legal/contractual nicety that 'they' are selling Phoenix under the brand Harman instead of Ilford. The actual physical people, the machines they used, and the buildings they were standing in are the same as the ones that make the Ilford films, so does it make any difference which we, or the man from Ilford, say?
 

Roger Cole

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Most of the world doesn't even know what photographic film is, and of those who do, most of them don't know there is a black and white version.

In my experience most people over 30 or so, and certainly over 40, know what it IS, and many younger people, but they assume it's no longer used by anyone and no longer available, and you're right, even if they do know it's still available and that a few people use it, they probably don't know you can still get black and white, and may not know it was ever a thing except from historical photographs.
 

Dustin McAmera

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Straying off topic a bit on the two-Ilfords phenomenon; I was looking at another thread, where someone is asking about a Silverchrome developer. Silverchrome is a brand of Swiss-Japanese-Australian Ilford, not Harman. But look at the product offering at ilford.co.jp:


They offer both the 'Harman-Ilford' black-and-white stuff and 'Ilford Japan' (Chugai Photo) products Silverchrome chemicals, Ilfocolor film, etc. and have a link to the Harman site at the top of every page.
 

Mick Fagan

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I don't follow the obsession with distinguishing between these two names. We know (I think?) that it's only a legal/contractual nicety that 'they' are selling Phoenix under the brand Harman instead of Ilford. The actual physical people, the machines they used, and the buildings they were standing in are the same as the ones that make the Ilford films, so does it make any difference which we, or the man from Ilford, say?

I'm not really sure if you know the difference, but in Australia if I wish to purchase Ilford color film, this is the only one available. It is called Ilford Ilfocolor. By the way, it is ECN-2 process


This is the same company that imports and distributes all of Harman Technology stuff into Australia. So if you wish to have Ilford FP4+ or HP5+ and so on, it all comes through this company.

The same company along with a Japanese company, shares ownership in the company that supplies Ilford Ilfocolor film. So it really does make a difference.

As I was sort of interested in getting a couple of rolls of the new Harman Technology C41 film, I perused C R Kennedy's website (the Australian company) looking for it, no luck. Thinking it may just not be on their website, I telephoned them. When I eventually got through to camera film sales, I literally drew a long period of silence; then the person at the other end asked, "are you telling me that there is a new colour negative film available from Harman?" I then went through a brief history of what Harman's new C41 process colour negative film was. Another long pause, then the person started to search the company data base but kept on coming up with a blank.

So it would seem that the company that part owns Ilford Ilfocolor, is not bringing Harman's Phoenix 200 colour negative film into Australia; even though they are the distributor of all Harman products into Australia.
 
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MattKing

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I don't follow the obsession with distinguishing between these two names. We know (I think?) that it's only a legal/contractual nicety that 'they' are selling Phoenix under the brand Harman instead of Ilford. The actual physical people, the machines they used, and the buildings they were standing in are the same as the ones that make the Ilford films, so does it make any difference which we, or the man from Ilford, say?

Unless you are speaking of products made before 2005, the corporation that makes and/or sells black and white photography related things that have "Ilford" on the package isn't named Ilford and can't call itself Ilford, except as a "trading as" name.
There is another corporation that is named Ilford, but it isn't allowed to use that name to market products that relate to black and white photography.
If you refer to the former as Ilford, as well as the latter, you just end up with a confused mess.
A mess that is even more confused if Harman products, and the products from the corporation that is called Ilford, are imported by the same distributor into your local market - as Mick Fagan posts above.
So the name matters.
 

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So it's important to some company lawyers (and ok - it's now important to anyone in Japan or Australia who is desperate for some Phoenix).

.. but to most people here, 'Ilford' is the maker of HP5 and FP4 and Pan F and ID-11; when those products were introduced, their maker was uncontroversially Ilford. That's why it's important to the Mobberley company that they continue to use that brand-name. Myself, I've used Ilford film all my adult life, and I'm not about to start calling it Harman film, any more than I'll call it Pemberstone film. Even Alf Harman never called his company Harman: before being named 'Ilford, Limited' it was the Britannia Works Company (I think: yes - see here: )

I can see why Japanese/Australian/Swiss Ilford might not want to market Phoenix alongside their own colour film etc. Maybe they'll relax about it; it's only been out a short week, and if it's a success, not offering it would be shooting themselves in the foot. As I pointed out above, the Japanese site already has a prominent link to Harman's Ilfordphoto.com, from which one click gets you to harmantech, which features phoenix prominently.
 

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I don't follow the obsession with not distinguishing between these two names. I’d use FP4+ no matter what trading name it used… and I call it by that name, whatever it may be.

But we’re off on a tangent. Let’s see some results from Photrio members using the new Ilford Feuniicks color negative print film!
 

Dustin McAmera

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If you mean me, I don't think I'm the obsessed one. It was Matt who said

On Photrio, a bunch of people insist on using Ilford to refer to things that quite properly should be referred to as Harman.
In the rest of the world, most people don't even know what you are talking about when you refer to "Ilford Black and White film".
Photrio is not the target market.


When Harman themselves brand all but a few of their photographic products 'Ilford', in text quite a lot bigger than they print 'Harman'; when its maker is happy to call it Ilford film, why would we call it anything else?

Does anyone walk into a shop and ask for a roll of Kodak Alaris Tri-X? (Rhetorical question: I don't think we do. I certainly don't: I don't even use Tri-X. I use HP5, and I ask for 'a roll of HP5', without specifying who I think makes it). Kodak Alaris categorise that as Kodak Professional black-and-white film.

There was a woman in that video by grainydays, who has worked at Mobberley for forty years. I bet she thinks she makes Ilford film.
 

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IKR. I still call Dunkin’ Donuts, “Dunkin’ Donuts”, despite them formally rebranding to Dunkin’… even when I buy a muffin instead of a cruller. I’d certainly not call them by their corporate name, “Dunkin' Donuts LLC, doing business as Dunkin'” no matter what. Too much of a mouthful. Old habits die hard sometimes.
 

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Because everything else they do is so good. Harman has set standards for high quality for quite some time. By producing an inferior quality colour film they are damaging their brand.

By hey, perhaps that's the future!

Most people when they see my film cameras ask, "can you still get film?" Black and white would probably blow their mind that it's even still available.

I don't follow the obsession with distinguishing between these two names. We know (I think?) that it's only a legal/contractual nicety that 'they' are selling Phoenix under the brand Harman instead of Ilford. The actual physical people, the machines they used, and the buildings they were standing in are the same as the ones that make the Ilford films, so does it make any difference which we, or the man from Ilford, say?

What's in a name? I know British people who are still pissed off that Marathon became Snickers here 35 years ago....

First off, I completely fail to see how putting out an experimental colour film under the Harman name with no mention if Ilford anywhere can possibly damage the reputation of Ilford films....or for that matter Kentmere. There's more chance of the "other Ilford" putting out ilfocolor causing damage to the reputation of our beloved line of B&W films.

And sure, *we* would buy HP5+, Delta and so on under Harman or whatever name they chose if they were unable to use the Ilford moniker....but we are the exceptions....Most of us here are familiar with the whole Harman/Ilford/Kentmere/"other Ilford" situation enough to at least know who makes what. The newbie photographer ordering film online or wandering into a shop does not, and honestly probably doesn't care.

The actual physical people and machines make Ilford and Kentmere film....but the two brands have co-existed for some years harmoniously operating in slightly different sectors of the market. Now Harman does likewise.

Specifically looking at Roger Cole's comment, that was certainly the case a few years ago. Up until about 2018/2019 people who encountered me out and about with film cameras assumed they were not loaded with film. Some would approach me and ask. Some clearly thought me quite mad. That has changed, certainly around England and Wales. But there's still confusion as to what film is available. Some people remember reading about Ilford going bang in 2005 and assume that there's been no new Ilford film ever since. Which is a bit odd since, even in my home town, I can point them to at least three shops in the town centre that stock it and have it out on display. But....most people just aren't that interested. And they're not going to know or care about the difference between Harman, Ilford and Kentmere. All they know, if they take any interested at all, is that there's a new colour film around. Which gets the whole hobby and industry that little bit more exposure.

We're back to navel gazing...."we want more colour film!"....."NO!! NOT LIKE THAT!"


I rather like the VAG group analogy. The same company owns Audi, VW, Seat and Skoda. There's some competition at certain price points but for the most part the cars are sufficiently differently placed that they don't often compete directly with each other. Each brand retains some identity and personality of it's own.
 

pentaxuser

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I don't follow the obsession with distinguishing between these two names. We know (I think?) that it's only a legal/contractual nicety that 'they' are selling Phoenix under the brand Harman instead of Ilford. The actual physical people, the machines they used, and the buildings they were standing in are the same as the ones that make the Ilford films, so does it make any difference which we, or the man from Ilford, say?

Here's what Harman said to me: "Hopefully, you have picked up from the information released so far that this product will be under the HARMAN Photo brand and not the ILFORD Photo brand for reasons that will become clear."

Reading the above again it is as if I was being told that it will become obvious. Well it hasn't as yet become clear to me why Phoenix is under the Harman brand

Yes I can speculate like others as to Phoenix is under the Harman brand but I can't recall seeing anything so far from Harman that makes it clear

pentaxuser
 

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Here's what Harman said to me: "Hopefully, you have picked up from the information released so far that this product will be under the HARMAN Photo brand and not the ILFORD Photo brand for reasons that will become clear."

Reading the above again it is as if I was being told that it will become obvious. Well it hasn't as yet become clear to me why Phoenix is under the Harman brand

Yes I can speculate like others as to Phoenix is under the Harman brand but I can't recall seeing anything so far from Harman that makes it clear

pentaxuser

If that was a reply to you before 1 December, i.e. before Harman had announced what the new product was going to be, they may simply have been referring to the fact that when the mystery product would be revealed on 1 December to be colour film, it would then be clear why it could not be under the Ilford name - because Harman only have the rights to use Ilford for black & white film.
 

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If that was a reply to you before 1 December, i.e. before Harman had announced what the new product was going to be, they may simply have been referring to the fact that when the mystery product would be revealed on 1 December to be colour film, it would then be clear why it could not be under the Ilford name - because Harman only have the rights to use Ilford for black & white film.

Harman assumes everybody have seen and read their Ilford trademark licence agreement?
 

Flighter

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Harman assumes everybody have seen and read their Ilford trademark licence agreement?

I doubt that as I imagine the agreement would be confidential.

I assume however that Harman will assume that those interested people such as pentaxuser will have an awareness that Harman can only use the Ilford name for black and white products, for instance it was mentioned in an earlier thread on Ilford Color Negative Film, for example this post https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/ilford-color-negative-film.200228/post-2698046 and it was also mentioned in speculation as to what was coming in the Harman Photo cyptic announcement/teaser post.
 

pentaxuser

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I doubt that as I imagine the agreement would be confidential.

I assume however that Harman will assume that those interested people such as pentaxuser will have an awareness that Harman can only use the Ilford name for black and white products, for instance it was mentioned in an earlier thread on Ilford Color Negative Film, for example this post https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/ilford-color-negative-film.200228/post-2698046 and it was also mentioned in speculation as to what was coming in the Harman Photo cyptic announcement/teaser post.

Yes I do but only by being on Photrio and reading tens of thousands of posts some of which made this clear but most who know that Harman Phoenix colour film comes from what people refer to as the Ilford factory at Mobberley probably do not understand the legal ownership point you mention and that has to cover a lot of the less active Photrio members as well

Maybe the consumers who are buying this stuff couldn't care less but it seems to me to quite an assumption on Harman's part that I should know or will realise once I knew on the announcement date that the new product was a colour film

Anyway thanks for the answers. You may be right

pentaxuser
 
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Harman use "Ilford" to distribute and market black and white film photography products.
They spend time, effort and money to try to associate "Ilford" with black and white photography itself.
The fact that they cannot do the same with colour film - because their license to use the name "Ilford" doesn't permit that - doesn't matter to the people who are the target for this new film. If they were to purchase an amendment to their license to permit marketing "Ilford" colour film, it might very well dilute the value of the marketing they have done since 2005.
They have a new product that they have decided to have their name attached to, rather than a trade name that they have purchased. That makes sense.
 
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When the old Ilford Imaging went into a version of receivership in 2005, it essentially ceased to be a going concern.
The employees were facing loss of their employment, the building and equipment at Mobberley (either owned by Ilford Imaging or leased by them - I'm not sure) was on the edge of being sold away, and the business that could rightfully continue under the name "Ilford" was on the verge of extinction.
Some of the former employees got together and set up an entirely new entity called Harman Technology - the name being a homage to the original founder of the former Ilford.
Those former employees convinced the receiver to sell them a bunch of things, which included a license to use the "Ilford" name for certain products. They negotiated a medium term lease of the former Ilford building and fixed equipment - they don't own that, they lease it. They offered employment to many of the now unemployed former Ilford employees. They purchased some existing inventory of constituent parts needed for production of Ilford branded black and white photographic product. They also purchased from the receiver some existing inventory of Ilford branded product - both manufactured by Ilford Imaging, and manufactured by others and owned and marketed by Ilford Imaging.
Other entities bought parts of the rest of Ilford Imaging from the receiver, and either carried on those other parts as different businesses under the name Ilford Imaging or started new businesses that referenced Ilford.
Harman Technology is a new and separate business from the Ilford that nearly went away completely in 2005. They have worked hard to remain associated in the public's mind with the former Ilford, but they aren't that entity - they simply purchased some really well cherry-picked parts of it.
 

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When the old Ilford Imaging went into a version of receivership in 2005, it essentially ceased to be a going concern.
The employees were facing loss of their employment, the building and equipment at Mobberley (either owned by Ilford Imaging or leased by them - I'm not sure) was on the edge of being sold away, and the business that could rightfully continue under the name "Ilford" was on the verge of extinction.
Some of the former employees got together and set up an entirely new entity called Harman Technology - the name being a homage to the original founder of the former Ilford.
Those former employees convinced the receiver to sell them a bunch of things, which included a license to use the "Ilford" name for certain products. They negotiated a medium term lease of the former Ilford building and fixed equipment - they don't own that, they lease it. They offered employment to many of the now unemployed former Ilford employees. They purchased some existing inventory of constituent parts needed for production of Ilford branded black and white photographic product. They also purchased from the receiver some existing inventory of Ilford branded product - both manufactured by Ilford Imaging, and manufactured by others and owned and marketed by Ilford Imaging.
Other entities bought parts of the rest of Ilford Imaging from the receiver, and either carried on those other parts as different businesses under the name Ilford Imaging or started new businesses that referenced Ilford.
Harman Technology is a new and separate business from the Ilford that nearly went away completely in 2005. They have worked hard to remain associated in the public's mind with the former Ilford, but they aren't that entity - they simply purchased some really well cherry-picked parts of it.

This should be made mandatory reading and if possible "A sticky note"
 

Ten301

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Maybe Harman wants to keep the Ilford name synonymous with B&W, and perhaps for legal purposes as well. However, the ‘other Ilford’ has already muddied the waters a bit with keeping the Ilford name strictly associated with monochrome.
 
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However, the ‘other Ilford’ has already muddied the waters a bit with keeping the Ilford name strictly associated with monochrome.

The "other Ilford" has continued the association between Ilford and colour - after all, It was the old "Ilford" that had the "Cibachrome/Ilfochrome" business.
 
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