Harman Technology vs. Ilford Photo vs. Ilford Imaging...what's in a name?

[Dustin McAmera]

Harman Technology is a new and separate business from the Ilford that nearly went away completely in 2005. They have worked hard to remain associated in the public's mind with the former Ilford, but they aren't that entity

That is a political point of view. Is the essence of a business its company documents and some men-in-suits owning shares, or is it a factory and the work of a few dozen or hundred people? If we choose to say it's the factory and its people that are the business, then Ilford in Moberley has been continuous through various changes in ownership and direction that took place to let the important activity continue.

 

[MattKing]

That is a political point of view. Is the essence of a business its company documents and some men-in-suits owning shares, or is it a factory and the work of a few dozen or hundred people? If we choose to say it's the factory and its people that are the business, then Ilford in Moberley has been continuous through various changes in ownership and direction that took place to let the important activity continue.

That might be true if there weren't so many fundamental differences between the Ilford that existed before 2005 and what Harman ended up with.
From the photomemorabilia site:

Here is the link, but you will have to scroll way down the page: https://www.photomemorabilia.co.uk/Ilford/Chronology.html

 

[Ian Grant]

The "other Ilford" has continued the association between Ilford and colour - after all, It was the old "Ilford" that had the "Cibachrome/Ilfochrome" business.

The old Tellko company that became Ciba-Geigy later bought Ilford in the UK, they were forced to change name to Ilford Imaging when Ciba sold the company. When Ilford Imaging went bankrupt the brand name rights were bought by Chuggi Photo Chemicals in Japan, Kennedy in Australia and a German company who also bought the company name.

So the current Ilford Imaging company is not a continuance of the the former Tellko/Ciba-Geigy, Ilford business. unfortunately they have the rights to use the name for the company and the brand names of products never made in Switzerland.

The brand name mess started in our realm when Agfa failed to renew the Rodinal trade name, which was registered in the US by J&C who then re-bottled Calbe RO9 as Rodinal in almost identical packaging.

More recently Kodak failed to renew the D76 brand name.

Ian

 

[pbromaghin]

They negotiated a medium term lease of the former Ilford building and fixed equipment - they don't own that, they lease it.

Thinking back to the big stink caused by Pemberstone's plan to re-develop the land for housing and a shrunken "right-sized" factory, if Pemberstone doesn't own the land, just who does?

 

[MattKing]

Thinking back to the big stink caused by Pemberstone's plan to re-develop the land for housing and a shrunken "right-sized" factory, if Pemberstone doesn't own the land, just who does?

I don't know.
I guess there is a possibility that through separate purchase they may have recently purchased it. Or them may have had an agreement to purchase that was contingent on approval of that development plan.
Are land ownership records publicly available in the UK? They are here, but there is a fee for each search.

 

[Flighter]

Are land ownership records publicly available in the UK? They are here, but there is a fee for each search.

Likewise here in the UK

 

[Flighter]

Thinking back to the big stink caused by Pemberstone's plan to re-develop the land for housing and a shrunken "right-sized" factory, if Pemberstone doesn't own the land, just who does?

Immediately after the management buyout (MBO) it was owned by Isola Investments Ltd, a wholly owned subsidiary of the Perviaz Naviede Family Trust (it was sold by the MBO team in a sale and leaseback to finance the MBO) according to Wikipedia which sites the following source

https://www.graysofwestminster.co.uk/newsitem.php?id=99&pg=20&mem=&arc=0

 

[Flighter]

The Land Registry site shows that the freehold site was sold on 9 December 2019 for £17 million. Unfortunately, without doing a paid title search the names of the seller and buyer can't be seen.
https://search-property-information...ywNSBls_hWWyis447g==/YA7YJVDk01PFv2uceqP0rw==


This is the leasehold title (not the it tells you much)
https://search-property-information...duT-SMjwSjh8o6-Vhg==/H5XvA7S3d0cwXIE0zGt3pA==

 

[Ballinderry-Michael]

I don't know.
I guess there is a possibility that through separate purchase they may have recently purchased it. Or them may have had an agreement to purchase that was contingent on approval of that development plan.
Are land ownership records publicly available in the UK? They are here, but there is a fee for each search.

Do you think the Harford/Ilman "who's who" sub-thread could be siphoned off? It's taking on a life of its own and distracting from Phoenix, which is an ongoing story.

 

[koraks]

Do you think the Harford/Ilman "who's who" sub-thread could be siphoned off? It's taking on a life of its own and distracting from Phoenix, which is an ongoing story.

Done!

 

[mshchem]

Thanks

 

[Ballinderry-Michael]

Golly, that was quick! Were you planning to do it anyway?

 

[koraks]

Golly, that was quick! Were you planning to do it anyway?

Nope. It was a sensible suggestion.

 

[Arcadia4]

Where can one learn more about that fact?

Search for a trade mark

Look up a trade mark to see if something identical or similar to your brand is already registered.

www.gov.uk

Simply search for ilford and any of the associated names to see who has rights to use them. For harman that doesnt include ilfocolor (held by ilford imaging gmbh), harman do own many of the tm for their products such as hp5 and fp4. So even if they decided to rebrand as harman, no one else could offer ilford hp5.

 

[Flighter]

The Land Registry site shows that the freehold site was sold on 9 December 2019 for £17 million.

Having had a quick look at the accounts of Harman Technology Ltd, its immediate parent The Harman Group Ltd, its parent Pemberstone Ventures (2013) Ltd, its parent Pemberstone Ventures Ltd and the ultimate parent Pemberstone Venture Holdings Ltd, there does not seem to be any sign of a freehold purchase in 2019 for £17 million. Neither do the related party transactions for the two Harman companies show any rental payments to related entities outside the Pemberstone Venture Holdings Ltd group. So it doesn't look like the freehold was acquired by any Pemberstone entity in 2019.

 

[Arcadia4]

The Land Registry site shows that the freehold site was sold on 9 December 2019 for £17 million. Unfortunately, without doing a paid title search the names of the seller and buyer can't be seen.
https://search-property-information...ywNSBls_hWWyis447g==/YA7YJVDk01PFv2uceqP0rw==


This is the leasehold title (not the it tells you much)
https://search-property-information...duT-SMjwSjh8o6-Vhg==/H5XvA7S3d0cwXIE0zGt3pA==

Although harman dont own the land they do benefit from some protections as tenant of the site. Additionally the proposed redevelopment for housing (with a smaller factory) failed because the factory is under the manchester airport flight path and noise levels are therefore very high to the extent planning for housing was refused. (Noting ilford imaging had previously sold part of the site, the old rajar works for housing in the early 2000s) but the airport traffic has increased with the second runway since.

 

[pbromaghin]

Although harman dont own the land they do benefit from some protections as tenant of the site. Additionally the proposed redevelopment for housing (with a smaller factory) failed because the factory is under the manchester airport flight path and noise levels are therefore very high to the extent planning for housing was refused. (Noting ilford imaging had previously sold part of the site, the old rajar works for housing in the early 2000s) but the airport traffic has increased with the second runway since.

And at the time, this reason seemed completely bogus to me. People who lived there were pushing the noise issue - if it was so bad, then why the hell did they still live there? Also, sale prices for homes (some selling 3 times) surrounding the site had steadily risen over the previous several years - if it was so bad, why did people keep paying greater and greater prices?

 

[Vaughn]

I don't follow the obsession with not distinguishing between these two names. I’d use FP4+ no matter what trading name it used… and I call it by that name, whatever it may be.
...

I liked it when FP4+ was called Arista by Freestyle and cheaper than FP4+.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I liked it when FP4+ was called Arista by Freestyle and cheaper than FP4+.

 

[Dustin McAmera]

I find I'm suddenly among the first posters in this thread, under a title I didn't recognise. I don't want to be seen as an activist on the topic of the new thread. It began as drift in a thread about the new Phoenix film, where I posted in response to what seemed to me an odd and off-topic post. It has been moved to a new title by moderator action. Without resiling from anything I've said in its original context, I think cutting the thread and changing the title changes the context. I doubt I would have posted in this under the title it now has.

(Neither am I questioning moderation: I know the forum rules allow for such moderator actions.)

 

[Ivo Stunga]

I use Delta 100, FP4+ and Kentmere films, love them!

But that Harman/Kentmere/Ilford thing is silly, stupid and confusing to a customer that wants a quality film from well-know, reputable manufacturer.
I remember shooting film in 90s, experiencing its downfall in my absence, then picking film up again decades later, when it cost dirt cheap and brands we're dying left and right, because people are people, and people rush to new, exciting things without thinking. And certainly without any thinking about diversity and what unique attributes each world - digital or analog - brings to the table, making them both viable at the same time.

And I don't care, customer shouldn't care or know this imho. The same as you don't have to know legal absurdities and what part is owned by who, to enjoy the entirety of the product: a car.

It certainly doesn't help in this age of repackaged Kentmere's, Aviphot's, Fomapan's and whatnot. Just confuses and forces us to be clueless detectives or something

 

[koraks]

I think cutting the thread and changing the title changes the context.

While this doesn't actually reconstruct the original context, I have posted a note at the top of this thread that signifies that it was a diversion from another one.

 

[Don_ih]

In our context, "Ilford" is used by people to refer to the company that makes HP5+ and MGWT paper, etc. The other company selling ECN film in recycled wedding-party cameras is almost never mentioned by anyone here. So, they're pretty much irrelevant.

That there is another Ilford at all is only an irritant, because people want to talk about companies as persistent identities that survive ownership changes and restructuring - so it would be nice to be able to use the word "Ilford" without someone irritatingly chiming in "which one?" (irritating, because it's always obvious which one: the only one anyone actually cares about).

Frankly, at this point, if Harman scrubbed the word "Ilford" from all its packaging and just put the word "Harman", they would lose no sales (especially if they maintained the rest of appearance of their packaging). This is a now a world where anyone can take a few big spools of Aviphot and cut it up into smaller strips and call it "Buster's Soot And Ash 800 Film" and sell out in a week.

Especially after Harman gains some success selling colour film, they can rebrand all their b&w film under their own name and market to all their new colour film customers - and drop the word "Ilford" altogether. Practically no one would notice.

 

[MattKing]

Especially after Harman gains some success selling colour film, they can rebrand all their b&w film under their own name and market to all their new colour film customers - and drop the word "Ilford" altogether. Practically no one would notice.

I could see them switching to increasing the visibility of "Harman" and using "Ilford" as a reference to their very special, black and white product line.

 

[Don_ih]

I could see them switching to increasing the visibility of "Harman" and using "Ilford" as a reference to their very special, black and white product line.

They currently stand to do very well if they get a couple of highly-regarded colour films out - that could easily eclipse their b&w sales. Let's hope they don't abandon their "legacy" in favour of new-fangled colour film, even if they ultimately decide to brand everything Harman.