Harman Price Increases

[pentaxuser]

I don't want to sidetrack the thread but in response to two posts since my last one, I maybe need to make it clear what I was referring to in my reference to RA4. Yes I appreciate that RA4 sells in larger quantities and economies of scale might play a part but unless Ilford B&W paper sales have fallen significantly in the last 12 months I am unclear as to why the price relationship that held between RA4 and Ilford B&W has changed significantly.

If indeed B&W sales have plummeted in the last 12 months vis a vis RA4 then this kind of price rise will cause sales to plummet more and Ilford is then in a vicious circle of price increases to support a smaller sales base which leads to a further fall in sales which leads to a price increase until even the loyalist of fans cease to buy or buy in such small quantities that only a former Kentmere( small company) level of production can be sustained. As one who has seen Ilford's facility twice on tours I don't think it can do things the old Kentmere way.

It's a big facility and a lot of people depend on it remaining that way.

pentaxuser

 

[aldevo]

In the end, we will only have Ilford paper and Fuji film to use. Everyone loves those products. Kodak seems hell-bent on getting out of film, Fuji has vowed to be the last one standing, and Ilford really is the best paper made today. Maybe Kodak will sell Tmax to Fuji.

Nobody knows who will be the last man standing or men standing or whatever.

It's easy to pick on Kodak because they are a publicly-traded company that issues press releases in English. Fuji does not issue English-language press releases and no other manufacturer (save Lucky in China) is a publicly-held firm at all. They tell us nothing. You blink and they are gone. Witness Sterling, Forte, etc.

There's no reason why FujiFilm won't pull a Konica-Minolta and walk away from film and consumer imaging with no warning. None at all. And there's no reason why Ilford or Foma or Efke can't implode overnight a la AgfaPhoto. Again, none at all.

Kodak is hell bent on surviving - nothing else. We don't know what that means for its film business but nobody should expect product availability to do anything other than to continue to diminish as long as demand is plunging, unabated.

If you're going to continue to shoot analog then you have to face an uncertain future with, potentially, no happy ending at all. That's the price you pay.

I just dropped $600 on a Bronica SQ-AI kit, so I'm willing to pay it and suffer unhappy consequences.

 

[aldevo]

I don't want to sidetrack the thread but in response to two posts since my last one, I maybe need to make it clear what I was referring to in my reference to RA4. Yes I appreciate that RA4 sells in larger quantities and economies of scale might play a part but unless Ilford B&W paper sales have fallen significantly in the last 12 months I am unclear as to why the price relationship that held between RA4 and Ilford B&W has changed significantly.

If indeed B&W sales have plummeted in the last 12 months vis a vis RA4 then this kind of price rise will cause sales to plummet more and Ilford is then in a vicious circle of price increases to support a smaller sales base which leads to a further fall in sales which leads to a price increase until even the loyalist of fans cease to buy or buy in such small quantities that only a former Kentmere( small company) level of production can be sustained. As one who has seen Ilford's facility twice on tours I don't think it can do things the old Kentmere way.

It's a big facility and a lot of people depend on it remaining that way.

pentaxuser

Interesting. Are you suggesting that traditional B&W is losing sales to RA4-printed B&W? I tend to doubt that's true.

 

[fotch]

In the end, we will only have Ilford paper and Fuji film to use. Everyone loves those products. Kodak seems hell-bent on getting out of film, Fuji has vowed to be the last one standing, and Ilford really is the best paper made today. Maybe Kodak will sell Tmax to Fuji.

Let’s see, Ilford raises is prices, some marketing idiot from Fuji remarks they will be the last man standing (cannot back up this worthless claim) and you think Kodak wants to get out (while introducing new films).
Such logic, it’s just amazing.

 

[pentaxuser]

Interesting. Are you suggesting that traditional B&W is losing sales to RA4-printed B&W? I tend to doubt that's true.

No not at all. I am simply saying that unless B&W paper sales have dipped alarmingly vis a vis RA4 sales then the economies of scale relationship that held good before the hikes in B&W prices should still hold good. If B&W Ilford paper was say 10% more expensive than RA4 12 months ago then I'd expect that the relationship pricewise to have continued whereas my observation is that B&W has risen in price much more than RA4.

In fact it wasn't so long ago that RA4 was much more expensive than B&W. That situation has been turned on its head in such a short period that I doubt that it is explained by a sudden increase in RA4 paper sales which might make it cheaper and a suddenr decrease in B&W sales which might adversely affect the economies of scale in B&W paper production.

pentaxuser

 

[aldevo]

No not at all. I am simply saying that unless B&W paper sales have dipped alarmingly vis a vis RA4 sales then the economies of scale relationship that held good before the hikes in B&W prices should still hold good. If B&W Ilford paper was say 10% more expensive than RA4 12 months ago then I'd expect that the relationship pricewise to have continued whereas my observation is that B&W has risen in price much more than RA4.

In fact it wasn't so long ago that RA4 was much more expensive than B&W. That situation has been turned on its head in such a short period that I doubt that it is explained by a sudden increase in RA4 paper sales which might make it cheaper and a suddenr decrease in B&W sales which might adversely affect the economies of scale in B&W paper production.

pentaxuser

There are many pricing trends I don't feel I can explain. For example, ISO 100 B&W film has suddenly become 15-30% more expensive than ISO 400 film in the USA. Even a couple years ago the reverse was true.

 

[Bob F.]

Well, US users at least should hold fire until Simon Galley gets into the office on Monday (assuming he is not on holiday as it's that time of year) but I suspect the US will be exempt from all or most of these rises due to the high Dollar and low Sterling values and the fact that the US is Harman's largest market by a long way.

However, as far as the UK is concerned, they have already priced me out of Warmtone and they seem determined to price me out of MGIV too. I will also be reconsidering my use of Delta 400 in 120 but changing film is a bigger step for me than paper.

 

[brofkand]

I'd imagine most of these price increases are simply to keep up with exchange rates.

The dollar has gained in value over a year ago while the Pound has dropped. So, without any other clarification I would say these price increases will be in the UK only. Just because the pound has dropped in value doesn't mean the silver or plastic they buy from American suppliers is 20% cheaper.

We'll see. That's my thinking, anyway. The way I see it, a roll of 120 PanF is still less than $4. That's a lot compared to the ~$2 a roll Arista, but I don't have the QC issues with Ilford that I have with Arista. For example, the last roll of Arista film I developed had the tape attaching the backing paper to the film horrbily off-line, blocking a portion of my first exposure on the roll.

I've never had such issues with Ilford (or Kodak, for that matter).

 

[Tom Kershaw]

Intuitively I'd speculate the pricing of RA-4 paper is distantly related to black & white fibre base paper pricing.

Tom

 

[Ian Grant]

Intuitively I'd speculate the pricing of RA-4 paper is distantly related to black & white fibre base paper pricing.

Tom

RA-4 paper is much higher volumes and so is more economic to make as a consequence. In addition it's manufactured at a number of sites by all the main manufacturers.

Ian

 

[bill schwab]

are there any resellers here from the US or Europe etc. who have had this notification?

In the US, I can only speak for myself. No.

 

[Matt5791]

In the US, I can only speak for myself. No.

In which case I would imagine it is a UK thing and maybe Europe. At this time....

 

[pentaxuser]

In which case I would imagine it is a UK thing and maybe Europe. At this time....

If it is mainly or solely related to exchange rates, hasn't the pound sterling fallen more and so far recovered less against the euro than against the U.S. dollar so on that basis that would exempt the euro area from the price increases as well, wouldn't it.

If it does and the price rises only affect the U.K. then Ilford might eventually be subject to the "parallel imports" phenomenon whereby Euro dealers import products and sell back to U.K. customers for a profit but still cheaper than those customers can obtain the products in the U.K.

A situation like that creates a "bad taste" all round with U.K customers and U.K dealers in Ilford products and isn't sustainable by the party creating initiating the price rises which eventually lead to the parallel import situation thriving.

Already on the U.K. e-bay U.S. powersellers have emerged trying to sell Ilford paper. It seems they have seen an opening. Their prices are very competitive but of course they won't succeed on a small scale selling to individual buyers because of massive delivery charges compared to U.K. powersellers but deliveries of massive amounts of products to a U.K. agent for onward sale to U.K. buyers could succeed.

It happened in the 1980s in the U.K. in another industry of which I had personal knowledge. That industry had to quickly change its pricing position when its U.K. agents stopped ordering from the manufacturer and switched to ordering from that manufacturer's overseas agents.

pentaxuser

 

[jgjbowen]

I'm not a big user of Ilford products, prefering Kodak for B&W film and Azo/Lodimia for prints, but as a photographer, I can think of NOTHING worse than a Kodak, Ilford or Fuji going out of business. These folks have to do what they have to do to keep the doors open. We may not like it, but we SHOULD continue to support them. They all deserve our loyalty.

 

[Curt]

I'm not a big user of Ilford products, preferring Kodak for B&W film and Azo/Lodima for prints, but as a photographer, I can think of NOTHING worse than a Kodak, Ilford or Fuji going out of business. These folks have to do what they have to do to keep the doors open. We may not like it, but we SHOULD continue to support them. They all deserve our loyalty.

I agree with John, it's a use it or loose it situation. Let's just hope they are as good at business as they are at producing photographic products. With all of the products on the market, even though they are much less than we have seen in the many past decades, it's hard to buy enough from all the companies being one person. Since I read this thread on Friday I haven't been able to get it out of my thoughts. And I suspect that in some darkened room in an office tower a group of marketing strategists at Kodak are mulling over the reaction from the community about the rumor that Harmon is raising prices. Every time I hear about market instability it's like hearing that a friend has just gotten Cancer.

 

[Ektagraphic]

Does this include Ilfochrome?

 

[Tom Kershaw]

Does this include Ilfochrome?

Ilfochrome is not made by Harman Technology Ltd.

See www.ilford.com for Ilfochrome.

Tom

 

[Ektagraphic]

So that is a no. I kind of knew that I guess.

 

[clayne]

This price increase sucks - and yes if any of those big three went out of business it would be a disaster. However, this is just a price increase: one that sucks a lot! That being said - I'll be stocking up on warmtone and diversifying.

 

[Steve Roberts]

Analogue photographic materials must surely fall into the category of luxury items these days. When I already have no choice but to pay 22% (or whatever it is) of my income to the taxman, £750 per year to West Devon Borough Council, £500 per year on insurances (house and vehicles), c.£1500 per year on fuel (just to get to work), £540 per year for the privilege of parking near where I work, c.£1100 per year for gas/electricity/water - and those are just the living expenses that spring quickly to mind - there must be many others. Well, compared to all I can't get too excited about an average 15% increase on my photographic bill which mainly relates to 35mm plus some 120. I've always regarded 35mm film (bought in 100ft rolls) as being "cheap as chips" anyway (120 clearly has different issues) and paper is possibly for me the most visible money pit - every time a reject 10" x 8" print goes in the bin I see another 30p (six shillings!) go down the drain.
I'm sure that all this is more of an issue for larger users than me and/or those who are struggling to make a living from analogue products, but to draw an analogy with Kodachrome's demise, how many would have been happy to pay an extra 15% for K64 in the knowledge that would keep the production lines churning? Quite a few, I suspect.

Best wishes,

Steve

 

[Rob Skeoch]

When this increase was first mentioned I did email my Ilford rep here in Canada.

This is the answer I received regarding price increases in Canada....

"The price increases mentioned on APUG, etc. will not effect our pricing in Canada at all."

just wanted people to know.

-rob

 

[Tom Kershaw]

Rob,

It will be interesting to see how far reaching in geographical terms these price rises are.

Tom

 

[Chris Nielsen]

but to draw an analogy with Kodachrome's demise, how many would have been happy to pay an extra 15% for K64 in the knowledge that would keep the production lines churning? Quite a few, I suspect.

The sad thing is the online price for K64 has gone up by at least 30% since the announcement of it's retirement and people appear to be buying craploads of it

 

[Jid]

I got an e-flyer today from Harman, it appears you can now buy from them direct via a new e-com website ( www.harmanexpress.com ). I have not had chance to see how prices compare to my local store yet but it might make getting stock easier than it has been.

Jid

 

[RIchardn]

I just checked http://www.harmanexpress.com and for 50 sheets of 12x16 warmtone fibre glossy paper it came up at £93.49 I can still get it from http://www.thedarkroom.co.uk for £72.79 have Harmanexpress already applied the price increase?