Harman Price Increases

[Tom Kershaw]

Ciaran,

Are printing with the Foma paper for your portrait work?

Tom

 

[Shangheye]

It is all about revenues. If they can't cover the fixed costs when demand slumps, the unit price goes up. Believe me...it is not becasue Ilford is being spiteful or running to the bank. We should thank them for actively trying to survive. They don't really even owe us that. The day I find Simon driving around in a Ferrari, I will know I am having the piss taken out of me.

Get your heads down, do your best for these guys...these are truly hard times...the hardest for 80 years.

I am not in to analog for the money, I am in it for the love...I will keep buying, because if we can show that in a downturn it can survive and do well....then it definitely has a future.

K

 

[Sal Santamaura]

...the new Adox is £50 for 25 shts...

If it's as good as the test run last year was, worth every pence in my opinion.

 

[ajmiller]

It's also down to the merchants how much mark-up they apply - a quick search for Ilford HP5+ 5x4 25sheets shows some big variances in price from Calumet at £33, Warehouse Express at £29, Silverprint at £26. It's a tough one but it isn't only Ilford that should take the criticism - the cost price is probably a lot lower than we think.....
btw - I used to work for a brewery and every time the Chancellor put 10p on a pint of beer the brewery would up the price to the punter by 20p a pint....

Tony

 

[railwayman3]

I agree entirely, Shangheye (^^^^ two posts up), and I'm not criticising Ilford (or any other manufacturer).

But not everyone has unlimited funds for hobbies and a point will be reached when the more expensive spare-time interests have to be abandoned or put-on-hold until times improve. Price increases in the supplies for any particular hobby can only bring that point nearer, and could likely result in a permanent fall in revenue for the manufacturer.

I had a photographic day-out at a car rally yesterday (in the absence of the usual foreign holiday this autumn...another item of discretionary expenditure put on hold...and less film, paper and chemicals used ). At one time, I would have shot up to half-a-dozen films on a day out, yesterday it was one. My prints will number less than 36 instead of maybe 200, but hopefully be better as I was more careful in taking. I also shot about 60 by that "other imaging system" where I just wanted a note of certain cars' features rather than prints to keep. None of this helps Ilfords or Kodaks income, and I'm sure I'm not alone in this approach at the present time.

As you say, the hardest times for 80 years, I don't envy anyone running a photo company right now.

 

[ajuk]

I was quite shocked when I just looked on my order history on 7Dayshop, on 28th Nov 2005 I paid £1.89 for a roll of HP5+ April last year I paid £2.15 which sounds about right for inflation, now it's 2.89 although if I bought enough I could get it for £2.69, so I'm not sure why I am writing this I suppose it's not that bad.

 

[railwayman3]

I was quite shocked when I just looked on my order history on 7Dayshop, on 28th Nov 2005 I paid £1.89 for a roll of HP5+ April last year I paid £2.15 which sounds about right for inflation, now it's 2.89 although if I bought enough I could get it for £2.69, so I'm not sure why I am writing this I suppose it's not that bad.

Just to be really pedantic, using the RPI, £1.89 in Nov 2005 would equate to £2.08 now, so £2.89 is a significant increase over inflation. A lot of 7dayshop B&W are the foil-wrapped individual films split from larger boxes (no prob with that, they say this on the site, and it keeps prices down) and there is no VAT as they are based in the Channel Islands. This means that they are probably the cheapest UK supplier, allowing also for their free postage.

A quick look on a random mainland supplier (RK Photographic...an excellent firm in my experience) gives £3.99 for a HP5+, plus post at cost, which is more typical of street prices, particular if you want the full retail packing of plastic tub and carton.

I'm getting really depressed now.

 

[RichardE]

Hmmm,
So, if I'm lucky and able to get out photographing on every weekend this month and take 6 films each weekend, using HP5+ and Ilford processing mailers from 7dayshop, it costs me £268.32.

A 32 inch slimline Hitachi LCD colour tv from Richer Sounds costs me £249.99.

Which do I choose?

Not knocking Ilford, but it makes you think.

 

[erikg]

Hmmm,
So, if I'm lucky and able to get out photographing on every weekend this month and take 6 films each weekend, using HP5+ and Ilford processing mailers from 7dayshop, it costs me £268.32.

A 32 inch slimline Hitachi LCD colour tv from Richer Sounds costs me £249.99.

Which do I choose?

Not knocking Ilford, but it makes you think.

Let's see: getting out into the world, meeting people, experiencing life, all the while doing something you presumably enjoy, maybe even love, and getting some mental and physical exercise. vs. sitting on your butt watching TV. seems like a no brainer. When the month is up either you have some great stuff to share and some great memories, or you can say you saw some tv shows and movies. You can either be the creator of media content or just a consumer. I know what I would choose. If you want to cut costs you could develop the films yourself. easy and cheap to do at home and lots of fun.

more on topic, I would also like to hear from Simon on these increases. Seems rather noticeable in his absence in this thread.

 

[RichardE]

I agree absolutely with everything you say, erikg, I've just discovered APUG, but have been an active photographer for 50 years, processing my own B&W and color throughout (remember ferraniacolor in Johnsons-of-Hendon kits, anyone? ) . And my 17-year-old TV (which I usually use for no more than a couple of hours a week) is unlikely to be replaced when it becomes obsolete after analogue transmissions are switched off in the next year-or-two.

So my own choice is obvious. But part of my point in being devil's advocate is to suggest that it is difficult to encourage many younger people to take up analogue photography if they realise a few cost comparisons such as I quoted. There are lots of less costly hobbies and interests which give the several benefits which you (very rightly) quote compared with vegetating in front of a TV screen, but photography isn't a pre-requisite to enjoying these.

Not trying to prove anything, just thinking aloud.....I know that I've drifted off topic, so I'll get off my soapbox now. And we love Ilford and their products, but it would be nice to hear from them.

 

[coigach]

It is all about revenues. If they can't cover the fixed costs when demand slumps, the unit price goes up. Believe me...it is not becasue Ilford is being spiteful or running to the bank. We should thank them for actively trying to survive. They don't really even owe us that. The day I find Simon driving around in a Ferrari, I will know I am having the piss taken out of me.

Get your heads down, do your best for these guys...these are truly hard times...the hardest for 80 years.

I am not in to analog for the money, I am in it for the love...I will keep buying, because if we can show that in a downturn it can survive and do well....then it definitely has a future.

K

Well said!

Cheers,
Gavin

 

[Chris Nielsen]

Just to give a little perspective, I gasped when I saw you pay £2.89 for a roll of HP5. I'm stunned. Is it really that cheap in the UK??? Amazing! If it were that cheap here I'd shoot much much more than I do currently.

How much do we pay here in New Zealand?? HP5 135/36 $14.15 (£5.97) at the cheapest wholesaler, about $17.00 (£7.18) at the local shop.

This is why I bulk roll, for obvious reasons.

Oh, and one more thing, the only place in my city of 100,000 people who sells Velvia charges $40 for a roll, if you can believe that! (£16.90)....

 

[Marco B]

Instead of worrying about our own personal difficulties so much (and yes, I am also on a very limited budget...), I think we should all pray on our knees Ilford (Harman) is not going to go bankrupt any time soon... because who is going to replace their products if they are gone? Film is not a problem, I can get Kodak & Fuji BW film easily here in the Netherlands, but paper is. I have never seen any other BW papers than Ilfords here in the Netherlands recently after Agfa went bust...

 

[RichardE]

Instead of worrying about our own personal difficulties so much (and yes, I am also on a very limited budget...), I think we should all pray on our knees Ilford (Harman) is not going to go bankrupt any time soon... because who is going to replace their products if they are gone?

That is, Marco, the real worry which no-one has put into words so far.

Agfa has gone, Kodak strugging despite all their best efforts, (not to mention General Motors, the big banks, etc., etc.)....we assumed that such huge companies were rock solid and here for ever.

 

[Stan160]

I was quite shocked when I just looked on my order history on 7Dayshop, on 28th Nov 2005 I paid £1.89 for a roll of HP5+ April last year I paid £2.15 which sounds about right for inflation, now it's 2.89 although if I bought enough I could get it for £2.69, so I'm not sure why I am writing this I suppose it's not that bad.

Not an entirely fair comparison because 7dayshop have changed from charging postage separately (£2.95 per order, from memory) to including it in the item price.

Ian

 

[RichardE]

Not an entirely fair comparison because 7dayshop have changed from charging postage separately (£2.95 per order, from memory) to including it in the item price.

Ian

Off-topic, but I find it worth watching 7-days's site, especially for clearance and special items. I recently bought atwo Lowe-pro bags for less cost than half-a-tank of petrol. (No connection, just a satisfied customer )

Their item-price-including-postage also makes it worthwhile if you just need one small item quickly, rather then making up a big order all at once.

 

[Tom Kershaw]

Marco B,

I suppose you could order Adox, Foma and other papers from Fotoimpex.

 

[steven_e007]

Just to give a little perspective, I gasped when I saw you pay £2.89 for a roll of HP5. I'm stunned. Is it really that cheap in the UK??? Amazing! If it were that cheap here I'd shoot much much more than I do currently.

It is even cheaper than that, if you buy it in bulk

I have yet to exceed the £2 barrier for 120 roll fil, FP4+ or HP5+.

Alas, after this price increase it will do, no doubt. Still not a lot of money, though. I just wish they would increase the prices in steady increments, not 20% jumps.

I suspect the reason for the high costs across the world must be shipping costs - hence the reason Kodak films are so expensive in the UK, but the price hike should only effect the production cost, not the shipping fees, so you shouldn't get such a big price jump, surely?

 

[Chris Nielsen]

It is even cheaper than that, if you buy it in bulk

I have yet to exceed the £2 barrier for 120 roll fil, FP4+ or HP5+.

Alas, after this price increase it will do, no doubt. Still not a lot of money, though. I just wish they would increase the prices in steady increments, not 20% jumps.

I suspect the reason for the high costs across the world must be shipping costs - hence the reason Kodak films are so expensive in the UK, but the price hike should only effect the production cost, not the shipping fees, so you shouldn't get such a big price jump, surely?

I guess the cost of raw materials has probably gone through the roof. Just at a guess.

 

[Tom Kershaw]

Steven,

To give an example, T-Max 400 is not significantly more expensive than Delta 400 after the price rises.

Tom

 

[RichardE]

I guess the cost of raw materials has probably gone through the roof. Just at a guess.

To some extent, yes.

A real problem is the overhead costs of just keeping any factory open to make complex products whatever the volume of sales.

If you think of something relatively simple, a company printing books has the cost of buying/maintaining buildings and plant and all the numerous ongoing overheads just to keep the doors open. Those costs must then be included in the sales price of the books, along with the cost of paper, ink and wages, to generate any profit. But if you can increase your sales ten times with the same set-up, those overheads fall to one-tenth for each book, the only extra is the maginal costs of materials and wages....life becomes more profitable!

But if sales fall, a larger proportion of costs fall on each book, less profit per unit, so increase prices, fewer customers buy, so less profit, etc., etc. A vicious circle.

 

[Shangheye]

To some extent, yes.

A real problem is the overhead costs of just keeping any factory open to make complex products whatever the volume of sales.

If you think of something relatively simple, a company printing books has the cost of buying/maintaining buildings and plant and all the numerous ongoing overheads just to keep the doors open. Those costs must then be included in the sales price of the books, along with the cost of paper, ink and wages, to generate any profit. But if you can increase your sales ten times with the same set-up, those overheads fall to one-tenth for each book, the only extra is the maginal costs of materials and wages....life becomes more profitable!

But if sales fall, a larger proportion of costs fall on each book, less profit per unit, so increase prices, fewer customers buy, so less profit, etc., etc. A vicious circle.

Exactly...so not buying because the price has gone up more than inflation as some kind of moral statement (I know some people can not afford it genuinely)...only feeds the fire. K

 

[RichardE]

Exactly...so not buying because the price has gone up more than inflation as some kind of moral statement (I know some people can not afford it genuinely)...only feeds the fire. K

Agreed...we real enthusiasts are, in the medium term, unlikely to not buy just to make a moral statement. Some of us who are Kodachrome diehards vowed, on the day they announced the discontinuance, that we would never touch another Kodak product in a million years! But life went on, we gradually accepted the inevitable and (and most of ) Kodak's reasoning, and we'll adapt to other products in due course rather than give up on our hobby.

Ten or twenty years ago, I was able to pursue my hobby with little thought to the cost, and I'm sure I could now, but rising prices, the economic situation and retirement in a few years all make me more careful, if only sub-consciously. At one time, I'd use many sheets of 20x16 in a darkroom session....now I think "do I really want/need a big print of this neg", before test-strips and careful printing and processing to try to "get it right on the first sheet". I find the darkroom sessions, if anything, more rewarding, but, unintentionally, this reduces my buying from Ilford. Certainly no moral statement implied, or grumbles about the UK price when I see what others suffer, but maybe I am feeding the fire too.

 

[Steve Roberts]

Ten or twenty years ago, I was able to pursue my hobby with little thought to the cost, and I'm sure I could now, but rising prices, the economic situation and retirement in a few years all make me more careful,

At the moment having to work effectively means that my photographic and other hobbies are limited to weekends, and only then after all the other essential jobs have been done. Thus the time and hence money that I spend on photography is inherently limited and the cost of the materials that I can use in the time I have available isn't an issue. However, if I retire in the next 5 - 10 years I'll have loads more time but less money, so my photographic activities will have to pay their way rather more than they do now.

Best wishes,

Steve

 

[Matt5791]

Instead of worrying about our own personal difficulties so much (and yes, I am also on a very limited budget...), I think we should all pray on our knees Ilford (Harman) is not going to go bankrupt any time soon... because who is going to replace their products if they are gone? Film is not a problem, I can get Kodak & Fuji BW film easily here in the Netherlands, but paper is. I have never seen any other BW papers than Ilfords here in the Netherlands recently after Agfa went bust...

Harman have a very strong balance sheet.