Harman Price Increases

RIchardn said:

I just checked http://www.harmanexpress.com and for 50 sheets of 12x16 warmtone fibre glossy paper it came up at £93.49 I can still get it from http://www.thedarkroom.co.uk for £72.79 have Harmanexpress already applied the price increase?

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I had thought that also. If they have, they are not competitive (in the UK at least) until the price increases with other suppliers takes effect.

My main supplier appears to have applied the increases and is cheaper than Harman Express, and gives an additional discount for quantity. But to be fair Harman can't undercut their larger stockists or they'd lose business, but it will make some of the more expensive suppliers sit up and think.

Ian.

Ian Grant said:

My main supplier appears to have applied the increases and is cheaper than Harman Express, and gives an additional discount for quantity. But to be fair Harman can't undercut their larger stockists or they'd lose business, but it will make some of the more expensive suppliers sit up and think.

Ian.

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Don't forget that your retailer is only exposed to the price increase when they place their order with the distributor. They, generally, implement their own price increases at that time *or* when a competing retailer has raised their prices.

Ian Grant said:

The huge danger will be that Ilford will simply price themselves out of the market, and that also goes for some of their competitors too, people will simply switch to a higher proportion of Digital output, and then switch entirely.
Ian

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This significant price increase is bad news indeed , but I wish anyone trying to save money by going digital good luck... chances are extremely high you will see your costs quadruple

I am not saying this out of any anti-digital grudge, but sadly, out of experience. Besides my working darkroom, I have a full digital workflow as well (except digital camera ), and I have read up extensively on things like colormanagement, so know what I am doing.

With costs of ink cartridges starting anywhere from 15 euros up to 20 euros per(!) cartridge(!), and a full set of 7 different colored cartridges only allowing for maybe 10 sheets of A3+ paper, and with the amount of issues (clogged nozzles, color casts), factoring in Ilford Gold Fibre Silk paper A3+ size (5euro / sheet!!! ), the economics of digital printing are far worse.

A single successful A3+ print from for example an R2400 could well cost in reality (including all test prints), anywhere from 15 - 100 euro's...

Now tell me how many succesful analog sheets of 12x16 or 20x24 you can make for 100 euro's...

Digital is only cheaper if it's left entirely in the digital realm, that is on harddisk or screen, and if you never ever print anything to paper...

Great point Marco....thanks.

Alessandro Serrao said:

Or if you take the photos to a prof lab to have them printed the way you want.

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...and than pay 300 euros for working hours and having them fix it on aluminium or some of the other novel hanging / framing materials.

What is your point? Only if you are non-critical, and accept the results of a commercial digital lab printing for the average consumer, you - might - be cheaper of. But a pro-lab? :confused:

Besides, how many people have direct access to a pro-lab in their home-town nowadays? I don't, I need to go to Amsterdam, while my darkroom is just a door away...

Marco B said:

Digital is only cheaper if it's left entirely in the digital realm, that is on harddisk or screen, and if you never ever print anything to paper...

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At the moment I have no plans to go down the Digital print route, but done professionally with the right set-up ink costs are minimal and paper is the major consumable and even that is relatively inexpensive.

It is some thing I costed out carefully 3 or 4 years ago as I was contemplating doing something with a friend, and I've kept an eye on it since.

It is not a subject for APUG

Ian

Ian Grant said:

It is not a subject for APUG
Ian

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Yes, you are right, let's leave it at this, and sorry for the rant Alessandro... But I do think people need to inform themselves if they ever consider switching, because there is a lot of hear-say about the real costs of d*****l printing, and in most cases far underestimated compared to any real-world scenario.

20% increase in prices!

This has probably all been said before but, I am having difficulty in understanding this.
From a marketing point of view this is at the very least going to alienate the loyal Ilford customers & from a trading point of view is very close to commercial suicide.

Nobody needs reminding that we are in the midst of the toughest trading times for the last thirty years – customers incomes are going to be steady or most likely falling over the next couple of years with most companies offering deals on products, three for the price of two or recession busting products (value lines etc) in an effort to keep cash flow constant – even at the expense of the profit margin. Very few companies will be putting up prices by 20%pa especially one whose customer profile is moving more towards the individual rather than the corporate.

Having worked in a commercial black & white press darkroom, many moons ago, I know how much Ilford product we could get through in a day – literally hundreds of sheets of paper. I know that this type of commercial sales do not exist anymore so can only imagine the reduction in output that this has caused to companies such as Ilford. These commercial buyers could have absorbed or “handed on” a 20% increase in consumables buy charging more.

The reality is that Ilford (& others) are not in this market anymore.

I guess that the majority of Ilford customers will now be home users, or hobbyists (self-included). We cannot hand on price hikes to our (non-existent) customers, so we absorb the cost ourselves. With the recession & stable or reducing personal incomes our spend on consumables may remain static but with rising prices our usage will decrease e.g. printing 4 negs instead of 5 or using 8x6 nstead of 10x8, as that is waht we can justifiably afford for our hobby.

The revenue to Ilford may remain constant but the units sold will decrease. It is well known that higher volumes of production reduce unit costs & lower volumes of production will increase unit costs. If as seems likely the price rise will reduce demand for units, Ilford are embarking on a downward spiral of increased prices leading to reduced demand meaning reduced production that leads to increasing unit costs – put through into more price increases.

It may be the case that the production facilities currently used are from the “old-days” of vastly higher production volumes & that it is uneconomic to run at current production volumes. Price rises cannot be the answer to this, as if prices rise by 20% pa for the next few years – who will be buying the product in three years time when it costs 60% more than now on an income that is probably only going to be 10% higher than now?

A different style of production must be found to remain viable. If not then it is a certainty that an east european/far east producer will take the market share.

I have nothing but respect for Ilford & its newer management & as a long time user (no other connection) of Ilford products only wish them success but loyalty can be stretched to breaking point. Having recently looked at their new direct marketing website (with I presume, the new prices in place) I was surprised to find that their was no cost benefit in buying direct from the factory rather than buying from a retailer.

I do believe that analogue b/w photography will be around for a lot longer than people predict – but it will be a hobby market not a commercial market. There will be revenue for whoever can make it work but it will not be easy. Graphics/painting programs such as Illustrator have not killed of the artists brush & paint, merely changed the market place – adapt & survive.

A 20% price rise when U.K. inflation is in low single digits (at best) & customers incomes are static or most likely falling is, at best insulting to the customer base & at worst commercial suicide.

A good post. When were you using hundreds of sheets per day, 1999, 1989, 1979?

Tom

Tom Kershaw said:

A good post. When were you using hundreds of sheets per day, 1999, 1989, 1979?

Tom

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It was in the late eighties/early nineties. *halcyon days*

Should have seen how much Velvia 50 we used *shudders!*

sim said:

I guess that the majority of Ilford customers will now be home users, or hobbyists (self-included). We cannot hand on price hikes to our (non-existent) customers, so we absorb the cost ourselves. With the recession & stable or reducing personal incomes our spend on consumables may remain static but with rising prices our usage will decrease e.g. printing 4 negs instead of 5 or using 8x6 nstead of 10x8, as that is waht we can justifiably afford for our hobby.

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As a professional who has no desire to use digital means in creating my fine are prints, I will accept any price increase as the cost of doing business, even if it goes sky high to say, a 100% increase over a year or two ago.

I can see where this would hurt the hobby types though, they are not getting any financial return on their investment.

It has been repeatedly and widely predicted that the cost of using analog versus digital is going to keep going up, I think this is something we need to come to terms with, professional, hobby or otherwise.

All these companies need your support, they are not raising prices to spite your loyalty, they are between a rock and a hard place in terms of conducting a business in a declining market and crap economy.

sim said:

It was in the late eighties/early nineties. *halcyon days*

Should have seen how much Velvia 50 we used *shudders!*

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And so the layout people would be supplied with a black & white RC print? Why did you use Velvia 50 rather than another film?

Tom

Jeff Bannow said:

I am going to wait for Simon Galley to chime in as well before declaring that the sky is falling ...

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No sign yet ?

I agree with this post 100%. I am very happy that products are being made and will support those who make them.

PKM-25 said:

As a professional who has no desire to use digital means in creating my fine are prints, I will accept any price increase as the cost of doing business, even if it goes sky high to say, a 100% increase over a year or two ago.

I can see where this would hurt the hobby types though, they are not getting any financial return on their investment.

It has been repeatedly and widely predicted that the cost of using analog versus digital is going to keep going up, I think this is something we need to come to terms with, professional, hobby or otherwise.

All these companies need your support, they are not raising prices to spite your loyalty, they are between a rock and a hard place in terms of conducting a business in a declining market and crap economy.

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bill spears said:

No sign yet ?

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Its only been a couple of weeks, don't they all get a couple of months vacation in the EU?

I'm self employed - lucky if I get a couple of days !!

fotch said:

Its only been a couple of weeks, don't they all get a couple of months vacation in the EU?

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Now you know where that 20% price increase comes from. It pays for our cocktail while reclining under the Mediterranean sun Keep working till you drop dead there in the US... so we can go on holiday instead

Marco B said:

Now you know where that 20% price increase comes from. It pays for our cocktail while reclining under the Mediterranean sun Keep working till you drop dead there in the US... so we can go on holiday instead

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Oh that hurts!

bill spears said:

No sign yet ?

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Bill. I don't think we will get anything now. If I were Harman and the increase only applied to the U.K. then trying to justify this on APUG carries the danger of simply serving to antagonise the U.K. contingent or re-open the debate at best and puts our ill-luck into sharp relief against the U.S. good fortune.

Very soon now the thread will die a natural death and each of us in the U.K. will have to settle on his own strategy for dealing with it.

Harman I think have settled on the "least said, soonest mended" strategy.

Putting myself in its shoes, I might respond if I could end the response with a message of hope as to future price increases such as the trend is now indicating stable prices in line with inflation only.

I wouldn't if I couldn't and I have every reason to believe Harman can't or won't say this either.

pentaxuser

Back to topic more or less: now if we discount normal inflation as the cause of this increase, if I remember well, someone mentioned a price increase for silver?

This is something I have been wondering about. Since obviously the analog photography industry is dwindling, and thus the former huge demand for silver from that side, what other uses are driving the price of silver up:

- High demand for solar systems based on mirror systems?
- Higher demand on the jewellery market due to economic growth in developing countries like India and China?
- Other "novel" uses of silver? (inducing rain as a rather stupid and wasteful example)

I actually have no idea of how the total world demand for silver is split up between different uses, in terms of relative percentages. Anyone have insight into this?

And how about the resources of silver. Is silver still plentiful as ore, or is that also becoming part of the problem? Some materials are simply running out or getting scarce.

And is the silver actually a real commodity in the light of the total costs of running a coating factory (labour, machinery, buildings and value written off)?

Marco

I am curious as to why Ilford would consider only raising prices in the UK or EU...why wouldn't any price increases that reflect increasing costs for raw materials and labor be reflected in prices all over the area in which Ilford products are sold? Have anything to do with the value of respective currencies?

In the US Ilford's pricing is higher than Kodak, exchange rates make UK products cheaper in the US, but the decline in the pound against the dollar and no reduction of prices in the US meant an effective price rise. (Simon stated as much earlier in the year).

There's no doubt the current recession will have hit Ilford sales, and along with the job losses announced a few months ago price rises were inevitable.

But as Martin Reed pointed out earlier this isn't the first price rise this year, and the rises compound each other so in real terms film and paper is now significantly more that this time a year ago.

Ian

Thanks to Martins heads up I have stocked up to the limit of my available funds, if I was more sure of my job I would of spent monies from the funeral fund and baught more again but we live in troubled times.

I will use my stock as frugaly as I can manage as in test strips rather than test sheets and save money ready for the next purchace at whatever it costs. If that means I have less material then I will have to manage and make less photos.

Lets put it in perspective, my photography is a hobby, its far cheaper than a previous hobby restoring and running classic cars and so far has not resulted in one trip to hospital casualty units for treatment to bodily injuries.

Regards Paul.