Harman Photo cryptic announcement/teaser

pentaxuser · Oct 24, 2023

Agulliver said:
Analogue Wonderland also say they've received a box containing something they're not permitted to tell us about yet....from Harman....along with the phoenix postcard.

Can they be believed and trusted? It's not a form of "marketing" to get them noticed and produce more sales?

What I have thought for some time however is that since Pemberstone took over we are long longer looking at the old management buy-out Harman established in 2005/6. Companies anyway do not stand still for what is now 17 years since the 2005/6 revival and in terms of behaviour and ethos it is a mistake to look at what we still term Ilford as the company that arose from the ashes of the pre 2005 Ilford and think we can predict what it will or will not do in the future, irrespective of whatever the" phoenix coming soon" may produce

pentaxuser

Tom Kershaw · Oct 24, 2023

pentaxuser said:
What I have thought for some time however is that since Pemberstone took over we are long longer looking at the old management buy-out Harman established in 2005/6. Companies anyway do not stand still for what is now 17 years since the 2005/6 revival and in terms of behaviour and ethos it is a mistake to look at what we still term Ilford as the company that arose from the ashes of the pre 2005 Ilford and think we can predict what it will or will not do in the future, irrespective of whatever the" phoenix coming soon" may produce

This is a good point. I am probably guilty of thinking of Harman Tech / Ilford Photo in those terms on occasion, forgetting the date is not 24th October 2006.

Agulliver · Oct 24, 2023

pentaxuser said:
Can they be believed and trusted? It's not a form of "marketing" to get them noticed and produce more sales?

What I have thought for some time however is that since Pemberstone took over we are long longer looking at the old management buy-out Harman established in 2005/6. Companies anyway do not stand still for what is now 17 years since the 2005/6 revival and in terms of behaviour and ethos it is a mistake to look at what we still term Ilford as the company that arose from the ashes of the pre 2005 Ilford and think we can predict what it will or will not do in the future, irrespective of whatever the" phoenix coming soon" may produce

pentaxuser

The AW post is similar to the one that is linked above....stating that the original poster had received a package about which they could not talk....from Harman. Remember that post did not originate with Harman Photo, they were sharing it.

AW may well exaggerate that they sell "240 different films" but they don't outright lie. Some of us old farts may not especially like this kind of marketing but it really works with the under 30s who are said to be driving the resurgence in film. If AW say that they received a box from Harman containing something they cannot yet tell us about....then I'm prepared to believe that. Now the contents of the box could be anything of course.

Thinking of the Pemberstone Harman, the main difference to how the Simon Galley led organisation operated seems to be in marketing. They already sell to us. They're looking at the younger folk, and that means Instagram and other social media....that means generating a bit of intrigue on social media.

MattKing · Oct 24, 2023

Agulliver said:
Thinking of the Pemberstone Harman, the main difference to how the Simon Galley led organisation operated seems to be in marketing. They already sell to us. They're looking at the younger folk, and that means Instagram and other social media....that means generating a bit of intrigue on social media.

+1.
Other than outreach and marketing, I see no fundamental difference in how the more recent version operates their business in comparison with when Simon Galley was involved.

Don_ih · Oct 24, 2023

There would be no hyping RA4 paper. There would be less hyping Cibacrhome. The only thing worth hyping, to stir up the interest of "film photographers" represented by social media "influencers": c41 film.

Anon Ymous · Oct 24, 2023

Don_ih said:
... The only thing worth hyping, to stir up the interest of "film photographers" represented by social media "influencers": c41 film.

While I agree with C41 film being hype worthy, previous Ilford product launches also had this sort of mysterious announcement, but IMHO created rather little enthusiasm when revealed. It was an ortho film and a darkroom tent, wasn't it?

Now, having said that, I'd really love to be proven wrong.

Dustin McAmera · Oct 24, 2023

Just across the field from the back of Harman is the Mobberley Ice Cream Company:

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

So I confidently predict that Harman have taken that over, and in due course your local film store will get an extra fridge to sell you HarmanRipple black-and-white ice cream.

koraks · Oct 24, 2023

Dustin McAmera said:
HarmanRipple black-and-white ice cream.

I was hoping for a color product.

pentaxuser · Oct 24, 2023

Tom Kershaw said:
This is a good point. I am probably guilty of thinking of Harman Tech / Ilford Photo in those terms on occasion, forgetting the date is not 24th October 2006.

Yes, Tom, I am equally guilty of thinking of the management and executives' philosophy that I met in 2006 and 2008 and I to need to remind myself that those people no longer exist and the company has moved along since then

Are we two the only ones who are subconsciously "stuck" in that era when it comes to imagining what Ilford might do or say? It's possible but not likely, I feel

pentaxuser

tykos · Oct 24, 2023

analogwisdom said:
Every Fuji E6 film is readily available in Japan, and if my knowledge is correct, restocks are heading to the US and Europe by the end of the year.

That is good news.
But, as I said, I wouldn’t invest millions of pounds in the hope that this happens…

mshchem · Oct 24, 2023

Henning Serger said:
Lachlan, no one can do RA-4 paper production more efficient than Fujifilm. That is the reason why they are de-facto the last remaining player in that market.
Please don't underestimate the remaining market size of RA-4 paper: Fujifilm is still producing a volume in the three-digit million m² range. Based on m² that market is still bigger than the photo film market.
The price-performance ratio of RA-4 is still unsurpassed, and much better than any inkjet solution. That is also the reason why the big mass volume photo labs, and big premium labs like White Wall - especially in Europe and Asia - remain focussed on RA-4.
The extremely low price of Fujifilm RA-4 paper also demonstrates their extremely high efficiency and large scale production. The production volume is so high that their paper is coated on coating machines completely focussed on paper production only (Harman and Foma are producing film and paper on the same machine). Besides the Fujifilm paper factory in Tilburg, Netherlands, there is afaik also another one in Japan (the paper factory in the US had to be closed recently).
Harman technology would not be able to compete in the RA-4 market with Fujifilm.

Best regards,
Henning

Good summary

snusmumriken · Oct 24, 2023

koraks said:
I was hoping for a color product.

Neapolitan?

pbromaghin · Oct 24, 2023

Nico Llasera (Nico's Photography Show) claims to know what is coming but can't tell us.

Xylo · Oct 24, 2023

pentaxuser said:
I suppose that it is possible they never thought of your easy method but I'd have thought that is unlikely.

The thing is that this is based on old technology and it produces colors that are soft and pastel with a fairly low resolution. Once Kodachrome was invented, it was essentially game over for this method of color separation. Even today, it would be a marginal market simply because of the availability of color film that is technically at least 1000x better.

But with the current prices of the rare metals that go into the color film production, this method might be something that would become interesting to some.

I had proposed it to Ilford for the simple reason that they only do B&W and that I had a hard time finding someone to contact at the other manufacturers.

Helge · Oct 24, 2023

Did I miss when this is going to get announced?

Don_ih · Oct 24, 2023

Anon Ymous said:
While I agree with C41 film being hype worthy, previous Ilford product launches also had this sort of mysterious announcement, but IMHO created rather little enthusiasm when revealed. It was an ortho film and a darkroom tent, wasn't it?

Ilford hyped the Ortho 80, darkroom tent, and Kentmere in 120. This, however, is a new branding, a new website, a new set of social media accounts. On one of their Instagram posts, someone commented "I need some enlarging paper" and the harmanphoto account responded "head over to ilfordphoto" --- which is implying Ilford remains as is and this is something else.
It also said it would not be a repackaged Kodak film.

Helge said:
Did I miss when this is going to get announced?

I don't think there's been any indication when it'll be announced.

Xylo · Oct 24, 2023

koraks said:
I was hoping for a color product.

As long as it doesn't melt too fast in the camera, I'm OK with that
Maybe they bought what's left of the old Perutz or Konica and bring back something...

Michel Hardy-Vallée · Oct 24, 2023

Anon Ymous said:
I've learned to keep my expectations low.

You beat me to the punch. It's probably another expired slide film with "integral" scratch marks on it.

Helge · Oct 24, 2023

Well, if Adox can make a colour film, surely Harman/Ilford can too?
It would make sense A. To capitalize on the 135 C-41 shortage. B. Stick it to “the other Ilford”.

One way to deal with the naming crisis would be to stop entirely using the name Ilford for a while (two years should be enough) and let “Ilford” do all the devaluation themselves. Then buy the name completely.
Risky though.

Wish they could arrive at an agreement. “Ilford” is not doing anything good for photography.

Don_ih · Oct 24, 2023

Helge said:
“Ilford” is not doing anything good for photography.

You mean the Australian/Japanese Ilford? The Harman one is certainly doing a lot for photography.

pentaxuser · Oct 24, 2023

pbromaghin said:
Nico Llasera (Nico's Photography Show) claims to know what is coming but can't tell us.

So the same as Analogue Wonderland If they can't tell us then why bother to even announce that they know The only reason I can think of is that both parties are saying; "Look we are in the know as privileged parties so pay more attention to us"

I wonder how that message helps them. I could never guess

pentaxuser

pentaxuser · Oct 24, 2023

Don_ih said:
This, however, is a new branding, a new website, a new set of social media accounts. On one of their Instagram posts, someone commented "I need some enlarging paper" and the harmanphoto account responded "head over to ilfordphoto" --- which is implying Ilford remains as is and this is something else.
It also said it would not be a repackaged Kodak film.

I don't think there's been any indication when it'll be announced.

Yes I think that all of the above is meant to make us think " This could be the start of something big" There's a song there somewhere , I feel

I am not surprised that it isn't a repackaged Kodak film Given the price of Kodak film that would be the Ilford turkeys voting for Christmas, wouldn't it

pentaxuser

Lachlan Young · Oct 24, 2023

koraks said:
I don't think so.
Yellow
Interlayer
Magenta
Interlayer
Cyan
UV protection layer
Physical protection layer
= 7.
The physical protection layer may even be coated as two identical layers to achieve the required thickness. I guess you could get away with a very thin layer, which would produce a rather fragile product.

Not to mention that I don't really see how it would make much sense for Harman to jump into a declining market with low margins, i.e. RA4 paper.

This inconsistent. The emulsions are what make the paper optimized for laser exposure. Moreover, Fuji's paper expose fine without reciprocity failure up to at least 10 seconds, which in practice is plenty for nearly all color printing people to with enlargers. Beyond that, you'll still get away with it without color problems, most likely. So I don't see how Harman would somehow by coating change this behavior in a way that's not relevant in the real world to begin with while using the same emulsions.

Another issue is that it's unlikely Fuji will supply emulsion to a 3rd party; emulsion making and coating are effectively integrated operations (there's a buffer in between them btw) within the same physical plant and I don't think Fuji actually has any infrastructure in place to syphon off emulsion batches for external resale. Not to mention the fact that the entire quality control loop between emulsion making and coating is closed, so supplying ready-made emulsion is something that totally violates the production philosophy of Fuji. Their emulsions are simply not made to be stand-alone, marketable products.

Not to mention that you can't actually sell a color RA4 emulsion. They're not stable and need to be mixed at the time of coating. It's theoretically possible to kludge something with intermediates, but it'll be a complex effort and it's doubtful if it would be any more effective than just making the emulsions in situ like any film and paper coating outfit has done since the dawn of silver halide!

Also, what's the rationale for theorizing that Harman would somehow be more fit to produce at a scale that better suits the market (which market, exactly)? It's easy and relatively cheap to purchase a box of 1 or 2 rolls of Fuji paper. Do you imagine Harman will somehow substantially beat this price point while not making emulsions etc.?

The idea doesn't add up in my mind.

From what I recall, only Agfa's print materials claimed 2 supercoats, almost all other print (as opposed to camera) products from Ilford, Fuji etc claim 1 (and Fuji tends to disclose supercoats) - Ilford's Marly coater could also do 6-layers/ pass, with Ilfocolor showing a 6-layer structure and Ilfochrome's thick interlayers making clear that it will have been done with 2 passes through a 6-layer head, (ie interlayers will likely have used two slots) with a complex drying structure. RA-4 total thickness seems to be around 10 micron (ie about that of a reasonably modern 400 speed BW emulsion).

Either way, the point is that Ilford have an established cooperation with Fuji and a production scalability that Fuji don't have - which means that if it is a colour product - and I am in no way certain that it is - then it's likely going to have significant Fuji input.

The only thing that's clear is that it's a resurrection of something that Ilford/ Harman have made before.

Helge · Oct 24, 2023

Don_ih said:
You mean the Australian/Japanese Ilford? The Harman one is certainly doing a lot for photography.

How can you even be in doubt?
Harman Ilford is probably the most universally loved company in film photography.

mshchem · Oct 24, 2023

Maybe Harman is bringing darkroom chemistry back to England. With Kodak and Tetenal going broke might be a good time.

Harman Photo cryptic announcement/teaser

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