Harman Photo cryptic announcement/teaser

Status
Not open for further replies.

Ian Grant

Subscriber
Joined
Aug 2, 2004
Messages
23,287
Location
West Midland
Format
Multi Format
One of the problems Ilford/Harman have is their rights to the Ilford brand name, it appears it can't be used on new products, only existing and upgraded versions.

There are hints that the black Phoenix will rise out of the ashes into colour, if so it's likely linked to Fuji.

Ian
 

Prest_400

Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Messages
1,474
Location
Sweden
Format
Med. Format RF
Ian Grant said:
There are hints that the black Phoenix will rise out of the ashes into colour, if so it's likely linked to Fuji.

Ian
Click to expand...

Let's see if it goes that way. Read through those, but Harman have had a good longstanding relation with Fuji.

I am picturing the following and it's hilarious:
Harmanchrome Velvia 50
Harmanchrome Provia 100F
Harmancolor 200
Harmancolor XT400
 

Agulliver

Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2015
Messages
3,614
Location
Luton, United Kingdom
Format
Multi Format

I know that has been stated before, but Harman are able to brand the dark tent as "Ilford" despite it being an entirely new product.

I don't get the impression we're looking at Delta 50 or HP6 here. Nor the reintroduction of something from a long time ago such as glass plates or some other mostly obsolete format of film. While I find it unlikely that Harman have perfected colour film manufacture, maybe they have teamed up with Fuji....because we don't really know what the latter has been doing regarding production of C41 films specifically. I mean we know they haven't made any for a while as the last genuine Superia hit the shelves over a year ago. But what's going on behind the scenes is a bit of a mystery.

It's certainly been successful in getting us talking. And it seems unlikely that a big new website and push of the Harman brand is for anything small.
 

Ian Grant

Subscriber
Joined
Aug 2, 2004
Messages
23,287
Location
West Midland
Format
Multi Format
Talking to someone in the trade Fuji haven't coated film for over two years, and the plant has been manufacturing cosmetics. Any films they have been selling are off master rolls, remember how long Kodak kept Kodachrome going from cold store master rolls to reach the 50 year milestone, it was a few years.

So we will have to wait and see.

koraks said:
Well, it's not a color negative film. It's B&W, as you also point out. And making an actual color film is a different cup of tea.
Click to expand...

Every colour film or paper is essentially based on B&W emulsions, and Ilford have plenty of experience of colour sensitisation, and the use of colour couplers. So @halfaman an is right to say XP2 is a colour film, but it's a single colour.

Harman Direct Positive paper is basically the core B&W emulsion for Cibachrome/Ilfochrome, and Ferrania P30 is the base emulsion for a possible new C41 film.

Ilford have been making film and paper for many years for Fuji, however some of the emulsion components are supplied from Japan.

Ian
 

Prest_400

Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Messages
1,474
Location
Sweden
Format
Med. Format RF
But they are coating film, for Instax. I don't recall the specifics of Integral film's structure, but it also uses film material. IP/Polaroid's were/are supplied by Inoviscoat.
And the investment for Instax is to increase finishing capacity. No idea about what the actual coater is doing. As the Kodak video series, film manufacturing has quite a lot of processes. Let's wait and see
 

Henning Serger

Subscriber
Joined
Aug 31, 2006
Messages
2,196
Format
Multi Format
Ian Grant said:
Talking to someone in the trade Fuji haven't coated film for over two years, and the plant has been manufacturing cosmetics.
Click to expand...

Ian, sorry, but this guy then has absolutely no knowledge about film production in general and Fujifilm. Fujifilm is coating even more photographic film than Eastman Kodak, because of their huge success with instax instant film. They are meanwhile selling more than 70 million instax film packs p.a..
Instant integral film (Polaroid and instax) consists of a negative film base and the receiving film base on which the final positive after development appears. Both film bases are coated on the same coating machine as 'normal' standard non-instant photographic films.
Fujifilm is also one of the leading manufacturers of X-ray film.

And cosmetics production is very, very different to film production (you cannot just take a film factory and producing cosmetics there). Therefore Fujifilm has right from the start, and for many years their own, completely on cosmetics spezialised factories.
The only relation to film production has been that some of the R&D knowledge about oxydation processes was taken from film R&D, and could be implemented to some cosmetic products like skin cremes.


Ian Grant said:
Every colour film or paper is essentially based on B&W emulsions, and Ilford have plenty of experience of colour sensitisation, and the use of colour couplers. So @halfaman an is right to say XP2 is a colour film, but it's a single colour.
Click to expand...

Correct, but the coating machine in Mobberley has only four slots, so only four emulsion layers can be coated at once with one coating run. That is not enough for a modern, high quality colour film, which has 15 to 20 different layers. So you would have to do four separate coating runs for every single parent roll, which would increase production costs very significantly.
None of the colour film manufacturers has done that in the last decades.

Best regards,
Henning
 

Agulliver

Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2015
Messages
3,614
Location
Luton, United Kingdom
Format
Multi Format
I wonder if some wires are crossed here. Fuji has made cosmetics for about twenty years. They did decide to prioritise this more in recent years but have they actually given over their film production facilities to cosmetics?

And wasn't the whole Kodak freezing films eventually revealed to be a false rumour?

I do stand to be corrected, much of this occurred before I was anything like "in the loop" any more than being a consumer. And I have certainly been fed more than my fair share of "facts" from retailers which turned out to be completely false.

Part of the problem we personally have with Fuji is that being a Japanese company, they just aren't very forthcoming about their businesses. Kodak, Ilford, Foma and the smaller players are far more open. That's just Japanese business culture though.

Do I correctly recall someone from Fuji's UK distributor saying just last year that they remain committed to film? And someone from Harman saying that they had no machinery or current staff experience that would help them produce colour film, and that they were concentrating on B&W.

The plot is very thick, whatever it is. I would tend to agree that it points to colour film. Maybe Fuji and Harman have teamed together....but if that's the case, why not just call any resulting film "Fuji"? The name is known worldwide....I mean, I assume that's why they are selling Kodak manufactured film under the Fuji name.....as a stopgap until they can resume production of the real Fuji Films. I'm still wondering what logic there is behind use of the Harman name. Which brings us back to in-house production of something they can't or don't want to sell as Ilford or Kentmere. Honestly, if it's more C41 film I shall jump with joy. But I am doubtful.
 

Henning Serger

Subscriber
Joined
Aug 31, 2006
Messages
2,196
Format
Multi Format
Prest_400 said:
But they are coating film, for Instax. I don't recall the specifics of Integral film's structure, but it also uses film material.
Click to expand...

Correct, see my posting above.

Prest_400 said:
IP/Polaroid's were/are supplied by Inoviscoat.
Click to expand...

No, they are not.
Polaroid is producing its film bases by themselves. It is done by their daugther company Inovisproject, which owns and runs the film factory in Monheim, Germany. The factory that was founded originally as InovisCoat. But InovisCoat got in insolvency in 2011.
The main shareholder and investor at that time of The Impossible Project and now Polaroid, bought the factory and founded Inovisproject as supplier for the needed film bases for the instant integral films.
InovisCoat got out of its insolvency as a mainly intellectual property and engineering / R&D company without their own factory. They have contracts to use the infrastructure of the Inovisproject factory in Monheim.
And InovisCoat is not producing for Polaroid. Inovisproject is producing for its mother company Polaroid. I have been in both Polaroid factories (Enschede and Monheim; as well as at Harman in Mobberley), and had very detailed factory tours there.

Best regards,
Henning
 
Last edited:

Agulliver

Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2015
Messages
3,614
Location
Luton, United Kingdom
Format
Multi Format
I've just had another thought.

Currently the only Fuji B&W film available is Acros II 100ISO. Is this correct? And Harman are involved in it's manufacture as a partner with Fuji.

IS it conceivable that FujiFilm has decided to release info to Harman that would permit Harman to manufacture defunct Fuji B&W films and sell them under the Harman name? For example, Harman Neopan 1600?

I'm not exactly sure how this would make great business sense for Harman as some of the old Neopan line would compete with Ilford products....but it's more realistic than Harman suddenly acquiring all the machinery and knowledge to manufacture colour films.

What would it actually take to bring Cibachrome back?
 

Henning Serger

Subscriber
Joined
Aug 31, 2006
Messages
2,196
Format
Multi Format
Agulliver said:
I wonder if some wires are crossed here. Fuji has made cosmetics for about twenty years. They did decide to prioritise this more in recent years but have they actually given over their film production facilities to cosmetics?
Click to expand...

Angus, as explained above, it does not make any economic sense to transfer a film factory into a cosmetics factory. And you are completely correct that Fujifilm had established its cosmetics production much earlier and already at a time when they were still coating hundreds of millions of standard, non-instant photo film.

If this new Harman "Phoenix" product is related to colour (but the design hints more to B&W), then maybe it is based on a cooperation with Ilford Imaging Europe GmbH. At least both companies are cooperating again in distribution in Europe.
But honestly, it generally does not make much sense to speculate. We will certainly know soon what it will be........

Best regards,
Henning
 

Prest_400

Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Messages
1,474
Location
Sweden
Format
Med. Format RF

Thanks for the insight and correction, in essence I was referring to the "ex Agfa" facility that is in Monheim. And that a series of products are coated there.
So company wise, there have been multiple entities and to aggregate on the complication there is Orwo Filmotec. Is it correct to refer to the actual manufacturing entity is InovisProject?
As eg. Eastman Kodak is for the MP and still films made in Rochester, out of the other names involved.

As you have industry insight. I was thinking to write on the speculation that Ilford Harman Mobberley could/could not manufacture color on collaboration with Fuji. Up to what extent are the facilities and machine No. 14 able to do it?

Fuji are focusing on Instax all hands on deck seemingly, so in a certain way Harman collaboration seems plausible; and the color market has attracted new investments/entrants (Inovis-Orwo+Adox)
 

tykos

Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2020
Messages
128
Location
italy
Format
4x5 Format
Agulliver said:
What would it actually take to bring Cibachrome back?
Click to expand...

well, for starters some e-6 films on the market. We currently have 2, one of which is coming from a company that is taking down stocks on a yearly basis.
Better if those films have a price people can afford and still have some money to buy a cibachrome print (not that many people print their pictures for starters).
 

pentaxuser

Member
Joined
May 9, 2005
Messages
20,113
Location
Daventry, No
Format
35mm

Yes and it might explain why there is no mention or even a hint about The phoenix on IlfordPhoto which is the main website. might it not?

pentaxuser
 
OP
OP

analogwisdom

Member
Joined
Aug 4, 2023
Messages
70
Location
KY
Format
Large Format
I'll agree that no one really knows WTF is going on with Fuji, but there are 5 current color slide films: Kodak E100, and then Fuji Velvia 50, Velvia 100, Velvia 100F (4x5 and Japan only), and Provia 100F. The market for slide films is extremely small and the market of people who would want to wet print those films is even smaller, so I think Cibachrome makes zero sense to re-release in 2023.
 

koraks

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
24,123
Location
Europe
Format
Multi Format
Ian Grant said:
Every colour film or paper is essentially based on B&W emulsions, and Ilford have plenty of experience of colour sensitisation, and the use of colour couplers.
Click to expand...

Yeah, well, I know a thing or two about gelatin layers and I'm sure I could figure out how to use hair dye, so that would cover the color couplers. Still, I couldn't make a functional C41 film. It's really easy to underestimate the magnitude of a leap from a B&W film, even a chromogenic one, to a color film that would stand any chance in today's market.
 

tykos

Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2020
Messages
128
Location
italy
Format
4x5 Format

i've not seen velvia 50 and 100/100F available in shops in a while, Provia sometimes.
However, I think that the huge investment to bring something like that to the market and being in the hands of what fuji and kodak decide to do with their production is not the smartest idea ever.
 

Lachlan Young

Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2005
Messages
4,974
Location
Glasgow
Format
Multi Format
Henning Serger said:
Correct, but the coating machine in Mobberley has only four slots, so only four emulsion layers can be coated at once with one coating run.
Click to expand...

I could be wrong, but I recall that M14 can coat up to 6 layers - it started as 4, then upgraded over the years - and 6 would be enough for coating RA-4. If it is a colour product, then the likely/ obvious candidate might be a resurrection of the Ilfocolor RA4 paper, but in the form of Fuji supplied CA emulsions, coated/ converted by Ilford at a scale more market effective than Fuji can do and colour/ reciprocity balanced for longer enlarger exposure rather than fast laser/ LED. Endura's absence opened up a gap and I think Fuji is highly aware of there being demand for their premium papers in sheets, even if they aren't really optimised for enlarger exposure.
 

koraks

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
24,123
Location
Europe
Format
Multi Format
Lachlan Young said:
and 6 would be enough for coating RA-4.
Click to expand...

I don't think so.
Yellow
Interlayer
Magenta
Interlayer
Cyan
UV protection layer
Physical protection layer
= 7.
The physical protection layer may even be coated as two identical layers to achieve the required thickness. I guess you could get away with a very thin layer, which would produce a rather fragile product.

Not to mention that I don't really see how it would make much sense for Harman to jump into a declining market with low margins, i.e. RA4 paper.

Lachlan Young said:
Fuji supplied CA emulsions, coated/ converted by Ilford at a scale more market effective than Fuji can do and colour/ reciprocity balanced for longer enlarger exposure rather than fast laser/ LED
Click to expand...

This inconsistent. The emulsions are what make the paper optimized for laser exposure. Moreover, Fuji's paper expose fine without reciprocity failure up to at least 10 seconds, which in practice is plenty for nearly all color printing people to with enlargers. Beyond that, you'll still get away with it without color problems, most likely. So I don't see how Harman would somehow by coating change this behavior in a way that's not relevant in the real world to begin with while using the same emulsions.

Another issue is that it's unlikely Fuji will supply emulsion to a 3rd party; emulsion making and coating are effectively integrated operations (there's a buffer in between them btw) within the same physical plant and I don't think Fuji actually has any infrastructure in place to syphon off emulsion batches for external resale. Not to mention the fact that the entire quality control loop between emulsion making and coating is closed, so supplying ready-made emulsion is something that totally violates the production philosophy of Fuji. Their emulsions are simply not made to be stand-alone, marketable products.

Not to mention that you can't actually sell a color RA4 emulsion. They're not stable and need to be mixed at the time of coating. It's theoretically possible to kludge something with intermediates, but it'll be a complex effort and it's doubtful if it would be any more effective than just making the emulsions in situ like any film and paper coating outfit has done since the dawn of silver halide!

Also, what's the rationale for theorizing that Harman would somehow be more fit to produce at a scale that better suits the market (which market, exactly)? It's easy and relatively cheap to purchase a box of 1 or 2 rolls of Fuji paper. Do you imagine Harman will somehow substantially beat this price point while not making emulsions etc.?

The idea doesn't add up in my mind.
 
Last edited:
OP
OP

analogwisdom

Member
Joined
Aug 4, 2023
Messages
70
Location
KY
Format
Large Format

Every Fuji E6 film is readily available in Japan, and if my knowledge is correct, restocks are heading to the US and Europe by the end of the year.
 

Henning Serger

Subscriber
Joined
Aug 31, 2006
Messages
2,196
Format
Multi Format
Prest_400 said:
Thanks for the insight and correction,
Click to expand...

You're welcome.

Prest_400 said:
So company wise, there have been multiple entities and to aggregate on the complication there is Orwo Filmotec.
Click to expand...

The company is called FilmoTec, not ORWO Filmotec or Orwo Filmotec.
Until their current insolvency they had the right to use the ORWO brand name for their films (and only for that). The other company with rights using the ORWO brand name was and is the the big German mass market photo lab ORWONet:

Ihr White Label Full-Service-Partner | ORWO Net

✓ Traditionsunternehmen ✓ über 340 Mitarbeiter in Sachsen-Anhalt ✓ Zukunft im Foto-Finishing
www.orwonet.de

AFAIK meanwhile ORWONet is the only remaining brand name holder / owner of the ORWO brand name. All current FilmoTec films don't have this brand name anymore. Could be one result of the recent insolvency of FilmoTec.
Filmotec can make emulsions, and can convert film for movie film formats.
But they don't have an industrial scale coater in their factory.
And they don't have film confectioning machinery for 135 and 120 film in their factory.
Therefore since their founding in 1998 they needed external partners for coating, and for 135 and 120 film confectioning.


Prest_400 said:
Is it correct to refer to the actual manufacturing entity is InovisProject?
Click to expand...

Well, the factory in Monheim is owned and run by Inovisproject.
Inovisproject is a daughter company of Polaroid, and only producing the film bases for Polaroid. As Polaroid has seen significant demand increase over the last years, Inovisproject has "enough to do" with producing the base film material.
They don't produce for InovisCoat or Filmotec as an official supplier.
As explained above: InovisCoat has the rights to use the factory infrastructure in Monheim for their coating runs when needed.

But InovisCoat (which is also in current insolvency) is cooperating with FilmoTec. Both have been recently owned by the same investor(s) (Seal). But both have been in insolvency, and their future is open / unknown.
I visited Monheim just before their insolvency. And the leading very experienced engineering and economical staff at that time has meanwhile left the company. There has been a significant brain-drain there.
It is important to be realistic. Often members on photrio or other photographer groups have too high expectations concerning both companies. I hope for a turnaround, but the situation is really uncertain.

Prest_400 said:
As you have industry insight. I was thinking to write on the speculation that Ilford Harman Mobberley could/could not manufacture color on collaboration with Fuji. Up to what extent are the facilities and machine No. 14 able to do it?
Click to expand...

Please see my posting above (106), as I have already explained that point.

Best regards,
Henning
 

Photomultiplier

Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2021
Messages
183
Location
Austria
Format
Medium Format

Agulliver

Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2015
Messages
3,614
Location
Luton, United Kingdom
Format
Multi Format
Photomultiplier said:
Look at the Insta story they posted 1h ago: https://www.instagram.com/harmanpho...d&ig_rid=a996c19e-8a7c-406a-ae02-481bc23cee82

There are some C41 negatives in file sheets lying on the table.
Click to expand...


Note that the short video was created by someone else, one of the people they've sent that physical postcard to.

Analogue Wonderland also say they've received a box containing something they're not permitted to tell us about yet....from Harman....along with the phoenix postcard.
 

Henning Serger

Subscriber
Joined
Aug 31, 2006
Messages
2,196
Format
Multi Format

Lachlan, no one can do RA-4 paper production more efficient than Fujifilm. That is the reason why they are de-facto the last remaining player in that market.
Please don't underestimate the remaining market size of RA-4 paper: Fujifilm is still producing a volume in the three-digit million m² range. Based on m² that market is still bigger than the photo film market.
The price-performance ratio of RA-4 is still unsurpassed, and much better than any inkjet solution. That is also the reason why the big mass volume photo labs, and big premium labs like White Wall - especially in Europe and Asia - remain focussed on RA-4.
The extremely low price of Fujifilm RA-4 paper also demonstrates their extremely high efficiency and large scale production. The production volume is so high that their paper is coated on coating machines completely focussed on paper production only (Harman and Foma are producing film and paper on the same machine). Besides the Fujifilm paper factory in Tilburg, Netherlands, there is afaik also another one in Japan (the paper factory in the US had to be closed recently).
Harman technology would not be able to compete in the RA-4 market with Fujifilm.

Best regards,
Henning
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Menu
Log in
Register
Cookies are required to use this site. You must accept them to continue using the site. Learn more…