Handling color paper on rolls in a small darkroom?

Donald Qualls · Oct 7, 2020

I've just learned that the only kind of RA-4 paper that's available in precut sheets (Fuji Crystal Archive II) is well known for poor black density and "muddy" shadows, as well as being on thin support. Crystal Archive Supreme and Kodak Endura, on the other hand, are much better -- but seemingly come only in rolls. I've seen rolls listed as narrow as a few inches, so they presumably aren't impossibly heavy, at least, but of course the roll width limits print size just like precut sheet size does.

The question now is, since I have a fairly small darkroom (about 8x12 feet, with a counter, small sink, and three kitchen carts for storage and enlargers), how do I deal with a roll of enlarging paper in total darkness (at least until I get an RA-4 safelight or make one) -- protect the paper from fogging, cut it to size to fit my existing easel(s), and ensure that the paper is closed up before the enlarger light switches on?

I presume there's something akin to a paper safe involved, with some means to mount a roll inside, and some means to semi-automatically cut straight across the roll, like the cutting bar on a butcher paper dispenser. Am I on the right track here?

Bikerider · Oct 7, 2020

Here is the description and pictures of a paper dispenser I posted about a year ago. It was designed to contain a 88 metre x 12" roll of paper

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/building-a-paper-dispenser-for-ra4.171346/ (Scroll down to post number 14)

It is made from 2mm thick alloy sheer and edges are 2mm thick angle strip all held together with 3,2mm rivets, the front of the dispenser has a 2mm wide slot at the base to allow the paper to be pulled out manually. The rivet and edges are not light tight so these were sealed with thick plastic self adhesive tape. The lid is just a simple lift off cover slightly larger than the container and these were sealed with self adhesive foam draft excluder strip,

The roll is mounted onto a piece of wood dowel slightly smaller then the core tube and runs on 'U' shaped bearers inside which are lubricated with candle wax. I cut the sheets individually with an 18 roller guillotine and can cut about 10-12 sheets per minute.

It works well but you have to take care when you pull the paper out and trim it off that it does not self rewind back into the box. After cutting the number of sheets I need I manually feed the paper back into the box but secure it with tape to stop it disappearing into the box. This means you loose a couple of inches every time you need to cut the paper but in UK the price of a roll of paper of better quality is around 25% of the equivalent pre cut sheets Out of an 88 m x 12" paperl you should get close to 200 sheets of 12x16 or obviously more from smaller sheets.

Do take special care in getting the box light tight it only take a little light to ruin the whole roll. The only change I would make is to increase the width of the box by about 1/2" as there is little space to make sure the spindle rests on the bearers. The dimensions I used are:- length 13" width 12" height 12".The lid is 12.5" x 12,5 with the depth of the lid extended by the angle alloy which is about 1,5 inches.

One thing to note, the more paper you use as you get near to the centre core the paper develops a pronounced curl, but as soon as it is place in the developer the curl disappears and the print always dries flat. Also take no notice of the green colour, that is only the protective film on the alloy which is how it arrived. Give a supplier the dimensions and they should be able to pre cut the sheets for you.

Mine cost about £20 or about 27$. The only tools you need are a power drill, a 3.2mm drill bit and a simple hand operated rivet gun plus of course some light tight adhesive tape

Hope this helps.

Donald Qualls · Oct 7, 2020

That's very helpful: it suggests this isn't a terrible thing to build, or even to customize to the size paper I buy (or to build more than one of for different width paper rolls), and also strongly implies I can't just search eBay for a color paper dispenser and will have to actually build one myself. It is, at least, compact enough to be able to store a couple different sizes in my darkroom, once I get the enlarger population under control.

It's tempting to consider building it with wood products rather than alloy sheet -- I can assemble with glue, and make the corners and edges light tight with fabric and paint inside and outside (paint also enhances the opacity of the wood), and for me, wood is easier to work. Also, blind rivets are very annoying to use, in my experience (and as you note, aren't really light tight unless I get the structural ones, which can't be installed with the small hand tool I already own, and are relatively expensive to buy).

wyofilm · Oct 7, 2020

A fairly cheap paper dispenser to start with ...
https://www.uline.com/BL_502/Paper-Cutters?keywords=Paper+Roll+Dispenser

I don't think the cutting edge is sufficient, but it does provide a straight edge to follow while cutting in the dark.

For what it is worth my recent foray in ra4 printing let me with somewhat bland results with Fuji CAII. HOWEVER, this could be a result of my own inexperience.

koraks · Oct 7, 2020

This video might be of interest to you. There's a few words on cutting papers from rolls.

MattKing · Oct 7, 2020

FWIW, I've done this with a 30" roll of black and white paper. That of course permits the use of a high level of safelight illumination. It is still a bit of a pain.

Bikerider · Oct 7, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
That's very helpful: it suggests this isn't a terrible thing to build, or even to customize to the size paper I buy (or to build more than one of for different width paper rolls), and also strongly implies I can't just search eBay for a color paper dispenser and will have to actually build one myself. It is, at least, compact enough to be able to store a couple different sizes in my darkroom, once I get the enlarger population under control.

It's tempting to consider building it with wood products rather than alloy sheet -- I can assemble with glue, and make the corners and edges light tight with fabric and paint inside and outside (paint also enhances the opacity of the wood), and for me, wood is easier to work. Also, blind rivets are very annoying to use, in my experience (and as you note, aren't really light tight unless I get the structural ones, which can't be installed with the small hand tool I already own, and are relatively expensive to buy).

I should have mentioned this is my Mk 2 version. The Mk1 was made to the same basic design from 10mm plywood glued and pinned and it worked very well - but after about 4 months of use I experienced edge mottling and area of along the edge which appeared to have lost all light sensitivity. I put this down to fumes coming off the wood and glue. I gave it away to someone who wanted it for B&W fibre based paper. I warned them of the problems I had but he said that it was only for B&W and was happy to give it a go.

6 months later he threw it out because of a similar problem I had with RA4. If you paint the inside I would think seriously about paint fumes - even water based paint may be worse than glue or fumes from the wood. The glue was ordinary PVA.

In normal use wood glue, paint or even the compound used in the manufacture of plywood is harmless, but in a close proximity for weeks or months at a time to photographic paper is certainly questionable. Especially in air that is hardly undisturbed inside the box for weeks at a time.

foc · Oct 7, 2020

Would something like a minilab paper magazine be of use?
It would act like a light-tight RA4 paper roll safe.
Turn the side knob and dispense the length of paper you want and cut it with a rotary trimmer.
See this example here from ebay.
https://www.ebay.ie/itm/Fujifilm-MG...975709?hash=item41ed694e1d:g:DlkAAOSwzyBbmPZm
The spindle can be adjusted on this model for roll widths of 89 to 210mm. Wide roll paper sizes are available.

DREW WILEY · Oct 7, 2020

I certainly haven't gotten muddy results with CAII, and recommend trying it in a convenient cut sheet size before fussing with a roll product. Bland hues are more likely due to using too low a contrast film choice to begin with, or else a Portrait rather than Commercial paper variety. The really high end Fuji papers come only in wide expensive rolls. CAII is a little bit thin; but some people are so klutzy that they could wrinkle a titanium ball. All I can say is that the thinness issue has never bothered me. I've commented on improvised roll cutters on previous threads, I think. Forget all those paper towel like tearoff gadgets. You're not printing on paper towels. Get a decent 2-rail Rototrim and configure a squaring arm to it. Cut enough sheets at a time to keep you busy awhile, store them in a decent inert paper safe, and return the remainder of the roll to its original packaging. Simple. No need to build hamster cages.

wyofilm · Oct 7, 2020

What are the differences between Kodak papers? Professional Endura, fine grain, e-fine grain, edge, Royal, Ektacolor edge, book photo paper, etc. Are some only for digital exposure?

Thanks!

mshchem · Oct 7, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
I've just learned that the only kind of RA-4 paper that's available in precut sheets (Fuji Crystal Archive II) is well known for poor black density and "muddy" shadows, as well as being on thin support. Crystal Archive Supreme and Kodak Endura, on the other hand, are much better -- but seemingly come only in rolls. I've seen rolls listed as narrow as a few inches, so they presumably aren't impossibly heavy, at least, but of course the roll width limits print size just like precut sheet size does.

The question now is, since I have a fairly small darkroom (about 8x12 feet, with a counter, small sink, and three kitchen carts for storage and enlargers), how do I deal with a roll of enlarging paper in total darkness (at least until I get an RA-4 safelight or make one) -- protect the paper from fogging, cut it to size to fit my existing easel(s), and ensure that the paper is closed up before the enlarger light switches on?

I presume there's something akin to a paper safe involved, with some means to mount a roll inside, and some means to semi-automatically cut straight across the roll, like the cutting bar on a butcher paper dispenser. Am I on the right track here?

Your biggest shock will be the minimum order requirement. Unique photo is the only place I've found that offers single rolls, and that's for Endura luster. I wish I would find time for more color printing, it's really amazing how much better a well thought out optical print is than a lousy machine print.

AgX · Oct 8, 2020

Bikerider said:
I should have mentioned this is my Mk 2 version. The Mk1 was made to the same basic design from 10mm plywood glued and pinned and it worked very well - but after about 4 months of use I experienced edge mottling and area of along the edge which appeared to have lost all light sensitivity. I put this down to fumes coming off the wood and glue. I gave it away to someone who wanted it for B&W fibre based paper. I warned them of the problems I had but he said that it was only for B&W and was happy to give it a go.

6 months later he threw it out because of a similar problem I had with RA4. If you paint the inside I would think seriously about paint fumes - even water based paint may be worse than glue or fumes from the wood. The glue was ordinary PVA.

In normal use wood glue, paint or even the compound used in the manufacture of plywood is harmless, but in a close proximity for weeks or months at a time to photographic paper is certainly questionable. Especially in air that is hardly undisturbed inside the box for weeks at a time.

The glues used in the manufacture of standard plywood do not contain Formaldehyde, nor do glues typically used by amateurs and craftsmen to mount wood, though there might be Formaldehyde used as biocide. It i

AgX · Oct 8, 2020

Bikerider said:
I should have mentioned this is my Mk 2 version. The Mk1 was made to the same basic design from 10mm plywood glued and pinned and it worked very well - but after about 4 months of use I experienced edge mottling and area of along the edge which appeared to have lost all light sensitivity. I put this down to fumes coming off the wood and glue. I gave it away to someone who wanted it for B&W fibre based paper. I warned them of the problems I had but he said that it was only for B&W and was happy to give it a go.

6 months later he threw it out because of a similar problem I had with RA4. If you paint the inside I would think seriously about paint fumes - even water based paint may be worse than glue or fumes from the wood. The glue was ordinary PVA.

In normal use wood glue, paint or even the compound used in the manufacture of plywood is harmless, but in a close proximity for weeks or months at a time to photographic paper is certainly questionable. Especially in air that is hardly undisturbed inside the box for weeks at a time.

The glues used in the manufacture of common plywood do not contain Formaldehyde, nor do glues typically used by amateurs to mount wood, though Formaldehyde may be used as biocide. This is not the case for a glue very common in Europe. Water-based wall-paints typically contain Formaldehyde as biocide. Maybe this is the case too for some water-based varnishes. Though not with common paints with organic solvents.
In case Formaldehyde was the culprit.

Thank you for that report.

Donald Qualls · Oct 8, 2020

There was a pretty big flap over formaldehyde outgassing from budget furniture some time back -- apparently the adhesive used to bond particle board and MDF does exude this irritant/toxin for some time after it's manufactured, and there was a rash of such furniture in the early days of flat packs in which the "wood product" hadn't been aged properly before final distribution. AFAIK, actual plywood in this country hasn't used urea formaldehyde glue since the 1960s or earlier; most is bonded with resorcinol, as I recall. There are lots of other substances that will fog silver halide materials, though; hydrogen sulfide and ammonia, just to pick a couple that are gaseous in standard conditions and might be outgassed by various substances.

However, I'm also inclined to blame paint. Even latex based paints contains a number of volatiles, and undergoes a curing reaction as it dries which will outgas other substances (that familiar smell of latex paint is a combination of those). Even after it's "dry", latex will outgas for weeks or longer (and in a closed box, might concentrate the products over a prolonged period).

One of my favorite methods of blacking out wood (products) is India ink (aka China ink) -- this is carbon black bonded with gum arabic or other natural gum resin. In liquid form, it has a faint ammonia smell, but this isn't due to a curing reaction and will completely clear in a matter of hours if the unit is left open to air. It's very black, as well, and adds no gloss (if the surface it's applied to is glossy, like that left by a sharp plane or furniture scraper, you'll see a faint gloss, but a matte surface will remain dull).

I'll surely still start with pre-cut, packaged paper; until I can get to a color balanced print efficiently, there's no point in shelling out for a roll of anything, never mind a couple hundred bucks for a paper magazine or a fifty and a weekend to build an equivalent.

DREW WILEY · Oct 8, 2020

Since I worked for a distributor in that whole kind industry until recently, Donald, let me point out that very little plywood is made in this country. Nearly all of it is offshored to allow use of nasty glues; and there is only a very limited selection of plywood devoid of it, or with even small amount of formaldehyde, which typically don't fabricate very well. One choice that exists is Apply Ply, but it's expensive. Regardless, any such material needs to be well outgassed. Even the seemingly inert materials come from warehouse storage spaces adjacent to lots of nasty stuff.
You're partially on the right track in terms of sealants. One ingredient of certain India Ink or Black Cat formulas is shellac; so it's not the ink itself that constitutes the seal, but the shellac. True shellac is a natural insect-derived product which has never been synthetically copied. It's dissolved in alcohol (sometimes in conjunction with ammonia), and tends to dry very quickly. It's also good for sealing in the turpenes and acids of wood products. But you might be surprised to know that the largest purchaser of this "aphid leather" is actually See's Candy. It's what provides that nice chewy center.
I won't complicate the conversation with paints, which at one point I was expert at. Now there are all kinds of hybrid varieties, and I don't even try to keep up with that anymore. There has been a big push for awhile now to totally exclude preservatives from water-based paints (which means they have a quite finite storage life), and formaldehyde per se hasn't been allowed in any kind of architectural coating in this country for decades. Sheet plastics are an option; but there again, one has to be careful to avoid anything like vinyl or otherwise capable of outgassing.

Donald Qualls · Oct 8, 2020

If I were to build something like this from sheet plastic, I'd use ABS. It's easy to get in sheets, in black, and while not opaque to IR, that shouldn't matter for color paper. In fact, black sheet ABS seems like a good option; it's inert enough to make good developing tanks, and easily bonded with pipe cement which is inert enough for aquariums after a 24 hour cure with ventilation (toluene and xylene are nasty, but extremely volatile). ABS is also very impact resistant, so cracks aren't a big problem.

DREW WILEY · Oct 8, 2020

At around 3/16 to 1/4 inch thickness, black ABS sheet is fully opaque and reasonably resistant to breakage (unlike the thin thermoformed version used for manufactured paper safes). It's cheap but a bit heavy that thick. It's easily sawed and drilled. I've used it for various darkroom things. But ABS is rumored to involve sulfur compounds in the mold releases used during manufacture, so everything should be scrubbed off and rinsed well after solvent-welding the pieces together, prior to usage.
And I'd allow about a week for the solvent to totally outgas before putting anything photosensitive in there. Remember, ABS can also be obtained in quite large pipe diameters at irrigations suppliers suitable for storing an an entire roll of paper.

Donald Qualls · Oct 8, 2020

Those seem like very reasonable precautions -- while corals and saltwater tropical fish are delicate, they won't get the kind of long term exposure paper in a box will, and it's truly remarkable the range of chemicals that will fog silver halides.

DREW WILEY · Oct 8, 2020

Oh the stories I could tell ! A very wealthy lady didn't want her expensive koi pond to get chilled by an incoming rainstorm, so hired a carpenter to make a big redwood cover for it; and in order to keep that in turn in decent condition, had treated it with wood preservative. The next morning they removed the cover and all those tens of thousands of dollars of fancy fish were floating belly up. It's easy to sell chemicals, but hard to get anyone to buy brains.

Bikerider · Oct 8, 2020

It sounds to me that you are looking for a problem which doesn't actually exist. I have already identified the possibility of 'gassing' from the wood/glue as almost certain the cause of the deeply affected edges of some prints. I cured this by making a 2nd container out of alloy, (No odours) which had constructional problems of light leaks via the rivet holes which I rectified simply and quickly by internally sealing the joints/rivets with light proof tape.

After I ordered and received the alloy plate, pre-cut to the correct sizes, it took me no more than 5 hours to complete the finished article. It works, perhaps it isn't pretty, but it is functional and does the job to my satisfaction. It is certainly more robust than plastic which itself may give off gas which affects the emulsion. The robust build will also be an advantage when lifting the box because a 88m x 12" roll of paper weighs very close to 20 pounds (9 kilos).

However if anyone has the skill to alloy weld you can dispense with the rivets..

Jim Blodgett · Oct 8, 2020

Donald - Okay, so I will TRY to upload a few photos of how I cut paper from rolls. This is my first try at loading photos on this forum, please bear with me.

So first off, I think this is pretty self explanatory, but notice the light colored wood strip to the right of the enlarger. Some people refer to that as a "French clete".

The top edge is beveled back towards the wall, maybe 30 degrees or so. Now look under the table and see a plywood rack on top of the paper boxes with a piece of closet rod nested in closet pole hardware. That rack has a corresponding piece that mates with the French clete on the wall to suspend the rack on the wall when I intend to use it. Here's a better shot of that rack...

and here it is mounted on the French clete...

Here's an empty 20" roll, you'll have to imagine it with paper on it. I slide the 22" closet rod into the roll and mount the roll on the rack.

Most rolled paper I've handled comes rolled emulsion side out, but it's clearly labeled on the box. So now I have the roll of paper mounted, I just pull enough out to register against the fence and stop on my paper cutter, cut and repeat until I have several sheets the size I want. I cut 10 or 12 then store them in a dark bag. When I get enough cut, I either put the dark bag in a box for storage or a paper safe if I intend to use it right away. Here's a shot of the paper cutter clamped to the table, pretty much parallel to the roll of paper. It's all done in the dark, but simple enough.

pentaxuser · Oct 9, 2020

Jim, thanks for thisThis at least avoids any problem with fumes from the wood or glue etc and has the advantage of simplicity. It may even be possible with a DUKA safelight on a very low setting to see what you are doing at least until the paper is fed into the cutter and placing each sheet into the bag immediately would prevent any problems with waiting until the end to gather up the sheets

The drawback is having to take out the roll and fix it in to the holder each time but cutting say 40-50 sheets at a time reduces the frequency of needing to do this

Looks like a worthwhile alternative to permanent storage in a box with its greater potential construction and cost

pentaxuser

Donald Qualls · Oct 9, 2020

Nice setup, Jim. I'd have to do some modifications, since where you have your french clete, I have a three foot (or so) gap and then my darkroom door. I suppose I could hang the roll from the door. Obviously, you'd do all the setup before turning out the lights to open the roll storage.

Which leads to the next possible issue -- presumably the bags that the paper rolls come in have enough slack to reclose securely?

Jim Blodgett · Oct 9, 2020

"Which leads to the next possible issue -- presumably the bags that the paper rolls come in have enough slack to reclose securely?"

Yeah, heck yeah. The dark bags rolls come in are super long...maybe twice as long as the roll. I generally put the roll back in the bag, twist a couple turns right above the roll and do my best to stuff the free end down in the tube. But even just twisting and folding the excess over and putting it back in the shipping box is fine.

And yes, I do get everything set up before closing the door/shutting off the lights. I even kind of "walk through" the steps I will need to take, kind of practicing or visualizing my steps in the light first. Every once in a while when I'm done I will find a sheet of cut paper or two on the table, or under the paper cutter, but all in all, it works fine as long as I keep my physical movements to a minimum and my process short - it's better for me if I keep focus on the task at hand and when I try to stretch a process out over a longer time my mind drifts and that's not good.

Here's another little thing that springs to mind. I like to print full bleed, borderless. Rolled paper tends to keep it's roll and doesn't lie flat on borderless easels so for smaller prints I use bladed easels and cut my paper a little oversized. If I want to print 8x10 for example, I might cut my paper 9x11 from an 11 inch roll them rely on the blades and slot of the easel to flatten it under the enlarger. Same principle with other sized prints.

It's kind of liberating to cut your own paper, though. You know how you always re-crop from the negative trying to maximize the image within standard paper sizes? Well, when you cut your paper to fit the shot, it gives you just a little more freedom, or room for impression, or something like that, golden ratio be darned. Of course, then you might have to make custom sized frames, too.

Jim Blodgett · Oct 9, 2020

"]Jim, thanks for this..."

Yes, yes of course. Glad to be able to contribute a little instead of just reading. Is that okay to upload a full photo like that? Or should I have uploaded thumbs instead? I was a little confused about that and really couldn't figure out what would work okay, what might overload the system. Are we limited here how much we can upload? Is there a preferred method? I definitely don't want to break any conventions or cause any problems.

Handling color paper on rolls in a small darkroom?

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