Hand Made Azo? Is it possible?

[Sean]

Sean, this entire thread is in answer to your question.

PE

I forgot I even posted it, was back in 2002

 

[Jim Chinn]

Sourcing a paper base sounds like the most likely obstacle. When you find a suitable paper to match to the emulsion(s), it will be much easier for someone or a group to step forward to make a minimum purchase of a known quantity with $10,000 as the target number as opposed to over $100,000.


I have pointed out before in such threads that one needs to think in a different paradigm with regards to analog products today. One needs a 500 million dollar factory to produce for millions of customers. Production methods can be designed and are probably currently available for very small quantities. This is what PE is persuing I believe. While he is not intersted in mass producing the paper, the knowledge he is gathering can be used either on an individual basis or by some ingenius person who can make paper runs in the hundreds.

Also, one needs to consider that formulas from someone like kodak are made with all the parameters of mass production, packaging, shelf life in mind. The boutique paper coater does not need to worry about such details.

I don't think one can ever match AZO exactly because one is not privy to the exact formula(s) and does not have the specific coating machine. But I am sure one can come up with something very similar and possibly even better in some peoples eyes.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

I suspect the manufacturing model would be something like that of Centennial POP or the old Palladio platinum paper. Kentmere papers seem to be short run affairs. It seems like the kind of product they could support.

 

[Photo Engineer]

I suspect the manufacturing model would be something like that of Centennial POP or the old Palladio platinum paper. Kentmere papers seem to be short run affairs. It seems like the kind of product they could support.

David, I would guess that the original quote from Michael and Paula for 'duplicating' a run of Azo outside of EK is probably reasonable. In fact, due to the initial losses at startup, the estimate may be quite low.

So, for a run costing $100,000 (I don't have that post here so I'm putting up a rough center point of what I think they quoted) they get a run of Azo which may or may not be right the first time and they keep doing it until it works. At least that is the way I read it.

Even a short run is close to 1 master roll. After all, you have to thread the machine and it is huge. Then you get it up to speed, then you coat. If the paper tears, you are SOL and with SW FB that is not unlikely unless you do a lot of work with SW FB and know how to tension the machine. Does Kentmere, for example, do a lot of SW? IDK, but I believe that their products are mostly DW FB or HW FB which are more durable when being coated. If SW FB is a one-off experiment for them, it might be difficult. IDK. This is a very complex issue.

RC is a lot harder to tear than FB during coating.

PE

 

[Aggie]

Explain to me why it has to be single weight? Single weight to me is a PIA to work with since you have to treat it with kid gloves. I much prefer double weight or even a heavier stock. Is there something mystical about single weight?

 

[Photo Engineer]

Explain to me why it has to be single weight? Single weight to me is a PIA to work with since you have to treat it with kid gloves. I much prefer double weight or even a heavier stock. Is there something mystical about single weight?

Aggie, I agree with you again, but the purists want the option of SW as that is the way Azo has been supplied for years.

PE

 

[Daniel Grenier]

Explain to me why it has to be single weight? Single weight to me is a PIA to work with since you have to treat it with kid gloves. I much prefer double weight or even a heavier stock. Is there something mystical about single weight?

Actually, Aggie, you will find that most Azo users (myself included) much prefer single weight paper. Why Azo is (was!) single weight, I don't know but kid gloves are not necessary after a few trials. Nothing mystical about the single weight thing, really. Azo was a terrific paper that just happened to be single weight. I will sorely miss it.

 

[kwmullet]

For me, the primary appeal of SW is the possibility (however elusive) of glazing. My understanding is that the thicker the paper, the more difficult it is to do glazing and ferrotyping without the emulsion cracking.

Another thought: if production lines for silver gelatin papers are so difficult and expensive to tool and supply, perhaps it might be more economical to produce small runs of commercial platinum and palladium papers or some mix of the two?

With the (hopefully temporary) diminishing availability of a silver chloride contact printing paper, I suspect a lot more people are going to be digging into Pt/Pd and/or split contrast printing.

-KwM-

 

[Sal Santamaura]

Explain to me why it has to be single weight? Single weight to me is a PIA to work with since you have to treat it with kid gloves. I much prefer double weight or even a heavier stock. Is there something mystical about single weight?

I also prefer heavier paper for enlarging, but have come to accept that single-weight is preferable when contact printing in silver for one compelling reason: newton's rings. With high humidity levels here, it's the only way I've been able to eliminate rings. I suspect that, being thinner, it conforms to the negative better, thereby eliminating areas of higher and lower pressure which cause rings.

 

[avandesande]

Single weight was preferred for mechanized reproduction processes, which is why single weight was so common with contact papers.

 

[Jim Chinn]

The way I understand it there is plenty of 8x10 grade 2 available. MS has it, and calumet has it in stock. Unfortuantely grade 2 is not really a true grade 2 but more like grade 1 which makes it usefullness pretty limited.

What I am curious about is what happened to all the grade 3? I gather from the original post on the AZO forum there where several buyers of the AZO in both grades. Where and who are they?

 

[Donald Miller]

The way I understand it there is plenty of 8x10 grade 2 available. MS has it, and calumet has it in stock. Unfortuantely grade 2 is not really a true grade 2 but more like grade 1 which makes it usefullness pretty limited.

What I am curious about is what happened to all the grade 3? I gather from the original post on the AZO forum there where several buyers of the AZO in both grades. Where and who are they?

The problem that most photographers are having with grade two Azo is that they are not matching the DR of the negative to the ES of the paper. This has nothing to do with grade two Azo being grade one.

Azo is recognized as being a long scaled paper. One could just as easily say that grade two Azo is a true grade four...the question that must be asked is "in relation to what"?

I have tested grade two Azo and if a negative is developed to 1.65-1.70 DR it will print properly on grade two Azo.

Some films will not reach that contrast. Efke PL 100 and Tmax 400 will reach it with no problems.

I have talked with other photographers who have expressed an experience that they have too much negative density to properly print on grade two.

The problem that keeps occuring is that a lot of the guys think that a high overall density is required...that is counterproductive to the issue. It takes a higher then normal density range and not a high overall density.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Guys, to add fuel to this fire...

I have reason to believe that the last batch of Azo in at least one of the grades is not up to specs in terms of contrast. You may want to check this out with Michael and Paula for veracity.

I also have reason to believe that the variations reported by different users is related to the reciprocity characteristics of the Azo paper itself.

PE

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

I think it depends on what grade 2 you have. I think I have Canadian grade 2, and my experience agrees with Donald's. Isn't the latest grade 2 made in Brazil, and yet another thing entirely?

Actually having Azo a grade softer could be a nice thing, if it would work for the negs I've targeted for albumen.

 

[mark]

What I am curious about is what happened to all the grade 3? I gather from the original post on the AZO forum there where several buyers of the AZO in both grades. Where and who are they?

A group who will make a big profit if they put it on the market. This is a devoted Niche market. These folks will pay whatever it takes. Look at what they pay now.

 

[jmdavis]

A group who will make a big profit if they put it on the market. This is a devoted Niche market. These folks will pay whatever it takes. Look at what they pay now.

I will give up Azo before I pay a price gouger a single penny. I will not reward greed.

As for the current prices, I have no problems with them at all. I am perfectly willing to pay the prices asked by Michael and Paula for the paper. 8x10 grade 3 is basically a buck per sheet in 100 sheet lots and $.67 per sheet in 500 sheet lots. Grade 2 is less than a buck for 100 sheets and $.67 each for 500 as well.

Ilford MGIV is $.66 per sheet in 100 sheet lots and $.54 in 250 sheet lots. So, the price difference really isn't that much in quantity ($.13/sheet).

Mike Davis

 

[Sal Santamaura]

I think I have Canadian grade 2, and my experience agrees with Donald's. Isn't the latest grade 2 made in Brazil, and yet another thing entirely?

There was never any made in Brazil. When the final master roll reached depletion (which wasn't expected for 3-4 years), the next run was to have been in Brazil, but Kodak closed its Brazilian plant and then discontinued all black and white paper before that could happen.

 

[avandesande]

I hate to be a spoiler, but I think the odds of M.A.S. getting a silver chloride paper to market are about a billion to one. I think his odds were much, much better for keeping Azo in production.

Jay

I think he will pull it off.
What are the odds that kodak will be selling any photographic materials in 5 years? We will probably be shooting 'lucky tri-x'

 

[Photo Engineer]

I think he will pull it off.
What are the odds that kodak will be selling any photographic materials in 5 years? We will probably be shooting 'lucky tri-x'

If that "Lucky" film is made with a Kodak formula, on machines built by Kodak, and with the assistance of Kodak engineers, then if it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck... etc...

However, I think that time is more likely further off than 5 years. If it does happen, it is not because Kodak wants it to happen. Seems to me a lot of you think Kodak wants this to happen.

PE

 

[roteague]

However, I think that time is more likely further off than 5 years. If it does happen, it is not because Kodak wants it to happen. Seems to me a lot of you think Kodak wants this to happen.

PE

I think you are correct. A lot of people want to accuse Kodak of underhanded motives for what probably was a simple business decision. Unfortunately, for a company of Kodak's size, the economies of scale is probably what drove their decision to get out of the paper market (as well as the DSLR market).

 

[avandesande]

It is not a matter of 'wanting it to happen'. Ever hear of the term "Eating the Seed Corn"? They are just milking their photographic processes(dry) to cover up their misteps in the digital market. Why are the japanese making all the best digital/minilab photo stuff?
Kodak is in a downward spiral of mismanagement. They should of spun off their professional photo products years ago.
Do you think Kodak is really going to last another 5 years?

 

[roteague]

They are just milking their photographic processes(dry) to cover up their misteps in the digital market. Why are the japanese making all the best digital/minilab photo stuff?

Not necessarily. The Kodak DSLRs were full frame cameras; the rejection rate for frull frame sensors is close to 100%. Canon makes full frame sensors, but Canon also makes smaller sensor cameras along with a bunch of other stuff. Kodak's camera were basically just Kodak assembled cameras; they were using bodies made by others with their own sensors. If Kodak was milking their photographic processes, then they would still be doing so today, not discontinuing them.

As for the Japanese; well the US gave the electronics market to them a lot of years ago. We have no one to blame but ourselves.

 

[avandesande]

Dell seems to do a good business selling a product assembled elsewhere. What forward thinking products does Kodak sell now? Cheap consumer digicams? (I doubt these are made in the US)
A smart forward thinking Kodak would of recognized a shrinking traditional market and worked out coating processes that could of been done in a single plant. They would of been able to maintain a diverse product line and bring down costs.
Kodaks loss of the digital/minilab market was their biggest mistake, you make money on the original sale and have continued revenue from service and consumables.

 

[Daniel Lawton]

Hmmm. Why doesn't APUG start a pool to purchase some of this coating equipment from all the Kodak plants that are closing down? Once a year ,with PE at the healm, we could all get together and coat extinct emulsions till our collective heart's are content. In all honesty though what does Kodak do with their equipment from defunct plants like Brazil?

 

[mark]

As for the Japanese; well the US gave the electronics market to them a lot of years ago. We have no one to blame but ourselves.

Good book on this subject is The Portable Radio in American Life by Michael B Schiffer

Well worth the read