Bob,
The tri colour gum prints I've seen first hand and on the internet have tended towards the pictorial. Do you know to what extent a more "photographic" result is possible?
Tom
Bob,
The tri colour gum prints I've seen first hand and on the internet have tended towards the pictorial. Do you know to what extent a more "photographic" result is possible?
Tom
When I had lunch with Bob a few weeks back he described the stripping process to me. Basically I need the punch, stripping table, and registration pins.
Don,
I don't have a stripping table, just the punch and pins. As long as you're careful and take your time it's not too much of a hassle. I use strips of Mylar cut to size and litho tape. And the only reason I use the Ternes system is they're local.
I believe one person in France still produces them, from what I recall they are about 2500 Euros each to print. They are also referred to as pigment transfer prints
Sometimes I think we need to start a specific forum just hybrid printing of gum and tri-color carbon or tri-color carbo. Perhaps we should ask Sean to create a new forum with the website rebuilt.
Thanks,
Don
The company in France that still produces color pigment carbon prints is called 'Fresson' http://www.atelier-fresson.com/home.htm
Price list is on their site. ...... 2500$ ?!?, I don't think they can print that size ;-)
Paris, France
The question I have is what material to use to extend the negatives to allow placement over the punch pin. Scrap OHP.
Dave and Don
Todd Gangler uses a image setter for his negs, CMYK, up until a few years ago , not sure if that is the case today
John Bentley an old friend of mine in Toronto, prints Ultrastabe and in fact he and Todd were given the **info ** on how to presensitize the tissue. He use to get his film from Todd and then registered himself, not sure if he found a local scanner , image setter person here in Toronto yet.
Both print onto a melemex type matereial in reverse and then transfer onto heavy weight paper in one pass.
I spent a week printing ultra stable onto Melemex at Main Photo workshops a life time ago .
The set up was very hokey at Maine and the conditions to print unrealistic which was a very bad first experience with the process.
At that time the fact you needed to go to a separator for scans, and output really turned me off and I never persued the process.
The guy who taught the class produced in Practice, as good density, colour and contrast as anything I have seen from T Gangler or J Bentley, basically his photography was not as impressive.
I do not remember his name, but Charles Berger supplied all the material needed and it is indeed a simple process to learn. But you do need the right humidity , temp, registration, working room to produce work that equals Gangler or Bentley.
The trick to my thinking, or snag is the issue of making your own tissue and then controlling the sensitizing of the tissue at time of printing, this throws in a whole can of whoopass for any worker.
Richard Sullivan of B&S is indeed trying to make the presensitized tissue and has a small beta group in NM working with him.
THIS IS THE NUT OF IT ALL, HOW TO MAKE PRESENSITIZED TISSUE, ONCE OR IF HE SOLVES THIS ISSUE , ITS A VERY BIG DEAL IN MAKING THE PRINTING WORKFLOW A PREDICTALBE PROCESS.
I hope Sandy dosen't mind, but in his living room there are a couple of very good tri colour carbons that predate both T Gangler and J Bentley and the Ultra Stable process. I am sure Sandy sensitized at time of printing and made his own tissues, but I will leave that for him to chip in if he wants.
I have seen the fressons and you are right Dave they do not equal T Ganglers or J Bentleys work for photographic reality, but they are quite beautiful on their own. I would suggest what is impressive is the full photographic quality of their work and if that is what one is aiming for then I think the Ultra Stable Process stands out.
I should point out some the best work I ever saw in this multiple colour printing was Steven Livik's multiple gum carnaval series., in fact it has always perplexed me why he did not persue this type of image presentation as I was totally blown away with the quality.
It has been years since I saw his prints., for a long time they were hanging in a Toronto Camera Shop and I always tried to buy them from unsuspecting camera salesman , who thought the work was shit.
What is significant to this discussion for me at least is the use of the K mask to produce top quality work and the problem of sensitising the colour tissues for carbon work. I now have the scanners , registration, output devices for film and see the pre sensitizing the tissue the only issue. Until someone smarter than me can solve this I am onto cmyk GUM and happy to do so . I am really hoping this discussion will spark some interest in workers to look into multiple colour carbon and maybe figure out the sensitizing issue of the tissue.
Don I got my strosser on my Trip to SC and am a really happy camper, remember all the plate burners have a rubber blanket to allow the pins to sink and keep the film in wonderful contact, once this is figured out picking the type of pin set up that will work with your exposing unit becomes pretty easy.
I like the Strosser because allows for a thick punch , is very robust, I like the oblong , circle , oblong punch that allows for some breathing room when laying down the films, and the pins go nicely in a Nuark exposing system.
One thing that I should say and wonder how all you feel.
I have seen a lot of work over the years in Alt process and I have to say the best work I seem to gravitate to or like is the smooth papers and not the heavy weight papers.
With that in mind mounting the paper to melemix or aluminum and then printing directly to the paper like Mr Penns work is IMHO the very best way to go.
I think a much more detailed , bold print can be made, not dissing the warm and fuzzy pics but that is my personal choice.
Off to Philedelphia in a couple of weeks to pick Christina Andersons brain on the the basic set up on tri colour gum. Taking two other workers with me and hope to get an good overview of the requirements to make gum.
I finally got around to viewing the print I mentioned in the original post. Its 40x30 inch pigment transfer print. Looked pretty good however would have liked to have seen it with no glass. I was told that a printer in Los Angeles made it. Bob you got any ideas of who the printer is? They have a new print up this month which I also viewed by the same printer (See link), again 40x30 inches, this looked impressive.
Link : http://shop.showstudio.com/item.php?id=145&nocache=1&startrow=0
Dave
no idea whatsoever, I would bet it is an inkjet print, I think Todd Gangler or John Bentley could make this print with their four colour carbon process but you say it is someone from Los Angeles??. The print on screen does not show texture which is not in the vein of work both of them like .
If it is a real pigment print then kudos to the printer.
N Knight is pretty well known and would be able to afford this print but looking at his gallery on your link my guess is inkjet.
I would be interested in the printer process. Earlier in past threads , I mentioned that I was taught for a week by a colour carbon printer *today he would be in early mid fiftys*who was from LA. His work was every bit as excellent as T Gangler or John Bentley except both John and Todd , transfer their prints to heavy rag and I believe add a gelatin coating for protection. The work by this printer was directly onto Melimex and was more photographic looking than the heavy rag prints being done in Carbon by the other two I mention.
Maybe its the same guy, if so a wonderful person and was really open with his methods. He was in very good terms with Mr Berger and possibly has the trick to make pre sensitized tissue as well as the two other. This printers work was primaraly large format , rocks, trees, water , movment, gag, pretty tones gag, work, not anything like this N Knight character.
If Maine Photographic Workshops keep a history of all the years then I would suggest around 92-94 as a good starting point. He taught only one year because there were so many complaints about the facilities needed to do carbon it was a joke, we all threatened to leave the first night after seeing the cave we had to work in with paper punch for registration. John Bentley was staying on and off with me at this time just before he left on his magic bus to Mexico , he saw a couple of pitiful prints I made and maybe this was enough for him to see the benifit, not sure.
My first stirrings of this process at Maine was so strained I decided not to persue *possible mistake* but I am a complete control freak, I could not imagine sending out film for scanning and seperating four films, and this was in the day when high end scanners and image setters*no inkjet* were so expensive I could not financially commit to this process with no clients willing to pay the high price of well done carbons. I already had a viable black and white printing business for photographers and this direction would have destroyed my clientele.
So John won't give up the secret, neither will Todd, maybe someone here has the chops to figure out how to presensitize the tissue, until then I am pursuing tri - colour gum over some kind of black printer. The basics are quite easy as I learned over a weekend with Cristina Anderson. Now the hard work in making a thousand gums to perfect a workflow I like and could be proud of selling to my clientele.
Bob
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