Hand Coated Pigment Print

I came across this print the other day and am trying to establish exactly what type of print it is, its was taken by fashion photographer Nick Knight. It states that its a 'Hand Coated pigment print' and its dimensions are 40x30 inches. Could this be a type of carbon print? Will contact them on Monday and try and have a look at it in person next week as it looks quite interesting. Details are here : http://shop.showstudio.com/item.php?id=74&nocache=1&startrow=0

If it was something like carbon or gum they would be certainly using those terms, since they have their own aura(!) - nothing to be shy(!) about. When they say "hand coated pigment prints" it doesn't tell me something specific (at all!), BUT makes me speculate they're varnished inkjet prints made on matte paper, actually - or something like that...??? (Especially considering their size - 30x40" is serious stuff for carbon, gum and alike...)

I'll wait for your follow up, I'm curious too now...

Regards,
Loris.

Loris Medici said:

If it was something like carbon or gum they would be certainly using those terms, since they have their own aura(!) - nothing to be shy(!) about. When they say "hand coated pigment prints" it doesn't tell me something specific (at all!), BUT makes me speculate they're varnished inkjet prints made on matte paper, actually - or something like that...??? (Especially considering their size - 30x40" is serious stuff for carbon, gum and alike...)

I'll wait for your follow up, I'm curious too now...

Regards,
Loris.

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Yes that’s exactly what i thought. However I know that Sarah Moon's prints are called pigment prints too and they are not the ink-jet variety, I believe one person in France still produces them, from what I recall they are about 2500 Euros each to print. They are also referred to as pigment transfer prints. From what I know about this type of print they are very difficult to create and are a variant of the cabro print. I have seen them in person and they are stunning, I would expect a photographer with the reputation of Nick Knight to be commissioning someone to use this process as opposed to selling the inkjet variety, but I am always open to surprises

Looking into this further the technique of pigment transfer prints was developed in 1870’s by the French photographer Louis Ducos Du Hauron. He adapted the monochrome carbon process by adding red, yellow and blue pigment to the gelatine. A modern version of this was surpassingly adapted through using pigmented geletine tissue that is used in the car industry and is known as Ultrastable.

Will post more about this process later as am a bit busy at the moment however this is a topic that is of great interest to me.

Here are some of the pictures I took a while back of Sarah Moon’s pigment transfer prints at the Michael Hoppen gallery (they represent her in the U.K). At the time a friend wanted some advice on what would be a good investment and I took him to see these prints. By far and away these are the finest hand made colour prints I have seen. Up close they are stunning, they almost have a slight relief. A challenging process, maybe in a few years time its worth attempting to focus my attention on this technique. These were made with ultrastable pigmented geletine tissue, size 30x24 inches.

I've run across this term many times in reference to older pre-inkjet prints. Irving Penn has a print or two listed as a pigment print, and Sudek has a whole book of them.

I never found out the exact process. Maybe Sandy would know more about it...

PVia said:

I've run across this term many times in reference to older pre-inkjet prints. Irving Penn has a print or two listed as a pigment print, and Sudek has a whole book of them.

I never found out the exact process. Maybe Sandy would know more about it...

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Pigment print is often used to describe carbon prints which is the process Sudek used.

http://www.colorcarbonprint.com/

Todd Gangler also makes [made] color carbon prints for Sarah Moon. Bob Carnie tells me that the Ultrastable process isn't dead, it's just not being made public-ally available if I'm remembering correctly. Sandy King knows the methods Gangler is using.

Don


Don

Davec said:

Here are some of the pictures I took a while back of Sarah Moons pigment transfer prints at the Michael Hoppen gallery (they represent her in the U.K). At the time a friend wanted some advice on what would be a good investment and I took him to see these prints. By far and away these are the finest hand made colour prints I have seen. Up close they are stunning, they almost have a slight relief. A challenging process, maybe in a few years time its worth attempting to focus my attention on this technique. These were made with ultrastable pigmented geletine tissue, size 30x24 inches.

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Wish we could still get some Ultrastable materials. Todd Ganglers color carbon work is pretty impressive. I guess for now I'll be happy with tri-color gum.

Don

Don, bullseye!

BTW, I remember some of the (Todd Gangler's) images from another site... Ataraxia? (Maybe I'm dreaming - but I'm almost sure I have seen the blue flowers with the bug there, before...???)

Regards,
Loris.

Don Bryant said:

Pigment print is often used to describe carbon prints which is the process Sudek used.

http://www.colorcarbonprint.com/

Todd Gangler also makes [made] color carbon prints for Sarah Moon. Bob Carnie tells me that the Ultrastable process isn't dead, it's just not being made public-ally available if I'm remembering correctly. Sandy King knows the methods Gangler is using.

Don

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Thanks for the link Don, the prints he has created look pretty special. From my research there are a few printing ateliers that have printed Sarah Moon's color pigment prints over the years. Some have moved onto other techniques.

Davec said:

Thanks for the link Don, the prints he has created look pretty special. From my research there are a few printing ateliers that have printed Sarah Moon's color pigment prints over the years. Some have moved onto other techniques.

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Did you look under the Process tab on Gangler's site? Notice the pigmented carbon tissue stripped and punched ready for registered printing.

I need to learn how to strip digital negatives for 3 and 4 color gum. I need a source for the punch, registration pins, and the how to do that. I have an incomplete picture in my head about how to do that.

Don

Don Bryant said:

Did you look under the Process tab on Gangler's site? Notice the pigmented carbon tissue stripped and punched ready for registered printing.

I need to learn how to strip digital negatives for 3 and 4 color gum. I need a source for the punch, registration pins, and the how to do that. I have an incomplete picture in my head about how to do that.

Don

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Am sure Bob would be able to help you with that.

I would like to get my hands on some Ultrastable, having a pre-coated tissue that was reliable would be great, am sure it would have to be with it being used in the automobile industry. Recently I was told by a person who used Ultrastable quite a bit that it was not as expensive as platinum printing just a whole lot more difficult.

Davec said:

Am sure Bob would be able to help you with that.

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When I had lunch with Bob a few weeks back he described the stripping process to me. Basically I need the punch, stripping table, and registration pins.

BTW Ternes-Burton has the registration materials:

Dead Link Removed

This is the supplier that Keith Taylor uses. Bob recommends Strasser punch registration equipment. Getting the peg bar, punch and registration pin inexpensively is my goal.

Then there is this:

http://www.saunalahti.fi/animato/pegbar/pegs.html

and this:

Dead Link Removed

Don

One other thing, it would be interesting to find out what digital negative system he is using, its looks as though its not PDN or any other type of method using colour inks from the images on his site.

Don Bryant said:

The Ultrastable process as I recall was very expensive, more so than platinum. I can't recall where I read the Ultrastable history but as I recall it cost about a grand for a 20x24 or something like that.

Don

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hmm thats a lot more that i was expecting. Any idea of what Todd charges for these types of prints? I think that would give a better idea of what the costs are.

Davec said:

One other thing, it would be interesting to find out what digital negative system he is using, its looks as though its not PDN or any other type of method using colour inks from the images on his site.

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Keith was using image setter separation negatives for the Cy DeCosse portfolio. He has used or experimented with PDN. He mentions that in the PDF file that you can purchase from LuLu.

Don

Loris Medici said:

Don, bullseye!

BTW, I remember some of the (Todd Gangler's) images from another site... Ataraxia?

Regards,
Loris.

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Maybe. This one is the only one I recall though I do remember Ataraxia.

I really like some of Sarah Moon's work very much. Her Pirelli tire calendar series shot back in the '70s was one of my favorite portfolios of her work.

You can read about the Pirelli calendar here:

http://www.salon.com/sex/feature/2001/12/21/pirelli

and see some of here:

http://forums.thefashionspot.com/f71/sarah-moon-photographer-19732-9.html

Unfortunately the public only got to see 12 of the images. I had that calendar at one time. She used the old GAF 500 color slide film for the shoot. I used it back in the day and I must have been one of the few people that liked the film since it was so grainey and loow in contrast. Rollei was producing a retro color negative film with no color mask similar to the GAF but quit distributing it before I could get a hold of some to compare.

But you can see how Moon's style of photography would be supported by the tis kind of color prints. Metzger used Fresson which may have looked good for Moon's calendar work.

Sorry for the topic drift ...

Don

Don Bryant said:

Keith was using image setter separation negatives for the Cy DeCosse portfolio. He has used or experimented with PDN. He mentions that in the PDF file that you can purchase from LuLu.

Don

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Yes it could be done by image setter speration negatives i know a few people who have used them and Todd might also by the looks of it. In terms of cost i would only looking to create small color carbon prints (6"X6"). Having the colour tissue pre-made would be a great time saver, i shall have to investigate this further and establish exactly how difficult this process is.

Don Bryant said:

But you can see how Moon's style of photography would be supported by the tis kind of color prints. Metzger used Fresson which may have looked good for Moon's calendar work.

Sorry for the topic drift ...

Don

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Nah thats not off topic thats interesting. I like Sheila Metzner Fresson prints although i much prefer the colour carbons of Moon's. The Fresson family are keeping their process a closely guarded secret from what i gather. Would be interesting to learn more about it.

Davec said:

Yes it could be done by image setter speration negatives i know a few people who have used them and Todd might also by the looks of it. In terms of cost i would only looking to create small color carbon prints (6"X6"). Having the colour tissue pre-made would be a great time saver, i shall have to investigate this further and establish exactly how difficult this process is.

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I think the image setter negs were about $12-$15 each.

According to a recent post on APUG, PE reports that the pigments are still being made, so I suppose it's possible to commission someone to make the tissue but the process is very difficult.

Don

Dave and Don

Todd Gangler uses a image setter for his negs, CMYK, up until a few years ago , not sure if that is the case today
John Bentley an old friend of mine in Toronto, prints Ultrastabe and in fact he and Todd were given the **info ** on how to presensitize the tissue. He use to get his film from Todd and then registered himself, not sure if he found a local scanner , image setter person here in Toronto yet.

Both print onto a melemex type matereial in reverse and then transfer onto heavy weight paper in one pass.


I spent a week printing ultra stable onto Melemex at Main Photo workshops a life time ago .
The set up was very hokey at Maine and the conditions to print unrealistic which was a very bad first experience with the process.
At that time the fact you needed to go to a separator for scans, and output really turned me off and I never persued the process.
The guy who taught the class produced in Practice, as good density, colour and contrast as anything I have seen from T Gangler or J Bentley, basically his photography was not as impressive.
I do not remember his name, but Charles Berger supplied all the material needed and it is indeed a simple process to learn. But you do need the right humidity , temp, registration, working room to produce work that equals Gangler or Bentley.

The trick to my thinking, or snag is the issue of making your own tissue and then controlling the sensitizing of the tissue at time of printing, this throws in a whole can of whoopass for any worker.
Richard Sullivan of B&S is indeed trying to make the presensitized tissue and has a small beta group in NM working with him.
THIS IS THE NUT OF IT ALL, HOW TO MAKE PRESENSITIZED TISSUE, ONCE OR IF HE SOLVES THIS ISSUE , ITS A VERY BIG DEAL IN MAKING THE PRINTING WORKFLOW A PREDICTALBE PROCESS.

I hope Sandy dosen't mind, but in his living room there are a couple of very good tri colour carbons that predate both T Gangler and J Bentley and the Ultra Stable process. I am sure Sandy sensitized at time of printing and made his own tissues, but I will leave that for him to chip in if he wants.

I have seen the fressons and you are right Dave they do not equal T Ganglers or J Bentleys work for photographic reality, but they are quite beautiful on their own. I would suggest what is impressive is the full photographic quality of their work and if that is what one is aiming for then I think the Ultra Stable Process stands out.
I should point out some the best work I ever saw in this multiple colour printing was Steven Livik's multiple gum carnaval series., in fact it has always perplexed me why he did not persue this type of image presentation as I was totally blown away with the quality.
It has been years since I saw his prints., for a long time they were hanging in a Toronto Camera Shop and I always tried to buy them from unsuspecting camera salesman , who thought the work was shit.

What is significant to this discussion for me at least is the use of the K mask to produce top quality work and the problem of sensitising the colour tissues for carbon work. I now have the scanners , registration, output devices for film and see the pre sensitizing the tissue the only issue. Until someone smarter than me can solve this I am onto cmyk GUM and happy to do so . I am really hoping this discussion will spark some interest in workers to look into multiple colour carbon and maybe figure out the sensitizing issue of the tissue.


Don I got my strosser on my Trip to SC and am a really happy camper, remember all the plate burners have a rubber blanket to allow the pins to sink and keep the film in wonderful contact, once this is figured out picking the type of pin set up that will work with your exposing unit becomes pretty easy.
I like the Strosser because allows for a thick punch , is very robust, I like the oblong , circle , oblong punch that allows for some breathing room when laying down the films, and the pins go nicely in a Nuark exposing system.


One thing that I should say and wonder how all you feel.
I have seen a lot of work over the years in Alt process and I have to say the best work I seem to gravitate to or like is the smooth papers and not the heavy weight papers.
With that in mind mounting the paper to melemix or aluminum and then printing directly to the paper like Mr Penns work is IMHO the very best way to go.
I think a much more detailed , bold print can be made, not dissing the warm and fuzzy pics but that is my personal choice.

Off to Philedelphia in a couple of weeks to pick Christina Andersons brain on the the basic set up on tri colour gum. Taking two other workers with me and hope to get an good overview of the requirements to make gum.

bob carnie said:

Off to Philedelphia in a couple of weeks to pick Christina Andersons brain on the the basic set up on tri colour gum. Taking two other workers with me and hope to get an good overview of the requirements to make gum.

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Bob,

The tri colour gum prints I've seen first hand and on the internet have tended towards the pictorial. Do you know to what extent a more "photographic" result is possible?

Tom

Tom,

I am a photographer based in France and have been working on some gum prints, what do you mean by a more 'photographic' result

Ian

Tom, have you seen Keith Taylor's, or Stephen Livick's works? (I'm in favor of a pictorial / free-style look BTW...)

EDIT: Some "photographic" work from Livick here, and Keith Taylor's prints (made for Cy DeCosse) here. (All galleries under "Gum Dichromate"...)

Loris,

As I am new to most of this, would you say my work is 'pictorial' or 'photographic'? I have posted some prints on the 'Hand Coated Wet Prints Gallery'

Ian

Great work Ian! Very beautiful & successful...

I think when Tom made the pictorial(!) - photographic(!) distinction, "as I understood it", has was thinking in terms of the two elements listed below:

1. Definition (sharpness, brushmarks, surface / texture ect...)
2. Color-correctness, or having (more?) true-to-life colors

??? (Tom, please correct me if my perception is way off compared what you have actually meant...)

I think you can come to a conclusion about your own works, according to the above given criteria... (To me, they lean to the pictorial(!) side...)

Regards,
Loris.