Halo on scans

Discussion in 'Scanning and Scanners' started by Ste_S, Aug 2, 2018.

  1. Ste_S

    Ste_S Member

    Messages:
    271
    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2017
    Location:
    Birmingham, UK
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I get my films dev and scanned at various labs, and I notice they always come back with a 'halo' where the sky meets the ground. This happens with various labs across C41 and B&W on Noritsu and Frontier scanners. If i try to work the scan in Lightroom, for example dropping highlights to compensate or blown over exposed skies, this makes the effect more visable.

    This is 120 Tri-X shot on a Zeiss Ikon Netter, with the film unmodified after scan. Notice the halo in between the top of the trees and the sky

    17500011.jpg
    This is the file with the highlights dropped to -100 in Lightroom, just to make the halo more visible

    17500011-2.jpg

    Any ideas what's causing this ? Was pulled up on it at a Royal Photographic society distinctions advisory day
     
  2. Doug Fisher

    Doug Fisher Member

    Messages:
    118
    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2006
    Those look like the classic halos that appear when someone over-sharpenes in Photoshop. The scanners you listed do a relatively significant amount of image processing by default. My guess is the scanner is set so that it is aggressively over-sharpening. Next time I would ask them to turn down the default sharpening level or not sharpen at all.

    Doug
     
  3. OP
    OP
    Ste_S

    Ste_S Member

    Messages:
    271
    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2017
    Location:
    Birmingham, UK
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Thanks. I had wondered if it was sharpening related. These scans are mild in comparison to some others, one lab in particular sharpens much more aggressively by default.
    I'll ask for no sharpening by default next time.

    With the Noritsu and Frontier, is the sharpening done across the whole photo, or selectively ?
     
  4. Doug Fisher

    Doug Fisher Member

    Messages:
    118
    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2006
    Applied to the whole photo.
     
  5. Bob Carnie

    Bob Carnie Subscriber

    Messages:
    7,391
    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2004
    Location:
    Toronto-Onta
    Shooter:
    Med. Format RF
    You need to tell the lab to have the settings set to no sharpening please, as unfortunately most of these labs only make really small prints and never see the disastrous effect of sharpening when scanning.
     
  6. OP
    OP
    Ste_S

    Ste_S Member

    Messages:
    271
    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2017
    Location:
    Birmingham, UK
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Went in and spoke to the lab yesterday, and they say they only apply minimal sharpening on scans. They think it's a problem where contrasting areas meet ?
     
  7. Dismayed

    Dismayed Subscriber

    Messages:
    221
    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2011
    Location:
    Boston
    Shooter:
    Med. Format RF
    Minimal sharpening appears to be too much sharpening.
     
  8. Old-N-Feeble

    Old-N-Feeble Subscriber
    Ads Enabled

    Messages:
    6,457
    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2012
    Location:
    South Texas
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    It looks like sharpening with a huge radius. If the lab's sharpening settings are 'minimal' and radius is set appropriate for the image resolution then there's something else going on in their scanner software. At any rate, I don't want anyone doing anything to my images... not even 'minimal sharpening'. Just get everything on the scan with no clipping.
     
  9. Lachlan Young

    Lachlan Young Member
    Ads Enabled

    Messages:
    1,578
    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2005
    Location:
    Glasgow
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Minilab machines all sharpen quite drastically - & the files they output are designed to be 'final' - ie straight to print with no further work. Further interventions are often a quick route to hitting the hard limits of the file.

    Probably worth getting the neg scanned as a 16-bit .tiff on a high end CCD or drum scanner & seeing what is really there.
     
  10. Wallendo

    Wallendo Subscriber
    Ads Enabled

    Messages:
    621
    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2013
    Location:
    North Carolina
    Shooter:
    35mm
    In many cases, the scanner sharpens without really warning the user. If this is minimal sharpening, I would hate to see full-on sharpening.
     
  11. Prof_Pixel

    Prof_Pixel Member
    Ads Enabled

    Messages:
    1,906
    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2012
    Location:
    Penfield, NY
    Shooter:
    35mm
    Sorry, I don't believe it's a scanner sharpening issue - the edges of the trees aren't 'crisp' enough (nor are other edges in the image over crisp). I suspect it's a developer concentration edge effect.
     
  12. calebarchie

    calebarchie Member

    Messages:
    302
    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2014
    Shooter:
    35mm
    It does not look like a typical over-sharpening artefact, almost like stand development halos at contrast edges.

    Really not necessary - loupe and light-box
     
  13. OP
    OP
    Ste_S

    Ste_S Member

    Messages:
    271
    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2017
    Location:
    Birmingham, UK
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    The good news anyway is that the lab is happy to work with me to try to identify what's causing this. Hopefully not a development problem as that then leaves me not trusting the three labs I use in the UK...
     
  14. Lachlan Young

    Lachlan Young Member
    Ads Enabled

    Messages:
    1,578
    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2005
    Location:
    Glasgow
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    To be fair, I'd tend to agree with you - though I've most often seen similar effects from poor layer masking in PS or bad dodge & burn in the darkroom.
     
  15. Lachlan Young

    Lachlan Young Member
    Ads Enabled

    Messages:
    1,578
    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2005
    Location:
    Glasgow
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Have you looked at the neg under a loupe - is the effect visible? And just to be clear, are you processing the film, or are the labs handling it?
     
  16. OP
    OP
    Ste_S

    Ste_S Member

    Messages:
    271
    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2017
    Location:
    Birmingham, UK
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    No, not looked at the neg under a loupe yet. Labs are handling the processing, this one in particular does dip and dunk for what it's worth
     
  17. Lachlan Young

    Lachlan Young Member
    Ads Enabled

    Messages:
    1,578
    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2005
    Location:
    Glasgow
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    That would tend to rule out severe edge effects then, given that it's more than likely replenished XTOL - I strongly suspect something in the scanner's software. Nevertheless, an image of the negative would be incredibly useful.

    If someone has the documentation/ operator's manual of the Frontier & Noritsu software it might give some clues as to what's happening.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2018
  18. OP
    OP
    Ste_S

    Ste_S Member

    Messages:
    271
    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2017
    Location:
    Birmingham, UK
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    For what it's worth, here's some more shots from the same roll of Tri-X.

    First image is an unmodified scan, apart from the highlights dropped to -100 to make the halo more visible. A halo again at the tree line but not as obvious as the previous photo 17500012-2.jpg

    The next two don't have a skyline and don't have halos, in fact I've worked on them both in Lightroom (including extra sharpening) and appear to be fine.

    17500006 6.jpg

    17500007 3.jpg
     
  19. Lachlan Young

    Lachlan Young Member
    Ads Enabled

    Messages:
    1,578
    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2005
    Location:
    Glasgow
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Found what might be a possible culprit: the Frontier software has something called 'hypertone' which automatically carries out local dodges & burns (like a masked curve adjustment layer?) & can be used to 'improve' shadows, highlights, backlighting etc. It's automatically on in 'full correction' mode.
    I suspect that the Noritsu does something similar - either way, it's worth looking to see if somewhat imprecise masking in this part of the software is to blame.
     
  20. Prof_Pixel

    Prof_Pixel Member
    Ads Enabled

    Messages:
    1,906
    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2012
    Location:
    Penfield, NY
    Shooter:
    35mm
    Sounds more likely than a sharpening issue.
     
  21. OP
    OP
    Ste_S

    Ste_S Member

    Messages:
    271
    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2017
    Location:
    Birmingham, UK
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Thanks, that's really helpful. I'll suggest it to the lab and see if their Noritsu has something similar and how they set it.
     
  22. ced

    ced Member
    Ads Enabled

    Messages:
    543
    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2011
    Location:
    Belgica
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Groups:
    It could be the development. The first image looks like it really is with near no USM in the image.
     
  23. Lachlan Young

    Lachlan Young Member
    Ads Enabled

    Messages:
    1,578
    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2005
    Location:
    Glasgow
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    It may be in the scene correction menu & have some degree of interaction with the digital mask - I fear it may be a bit tricky to deal with. If you can get a 16-bit scan (which the Noritsu can do) with minimal interventions otherwise, it might be easier all round.
     
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies. If you have a Photrio account, please log in (and select 'stay logged in') to prevent recurrence of this notice.