Half-Frame lens field of view and crop factor

Cholentpot

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I've been shooting a lot of half-frame recently and have noticed a difference shooting half, vs shooting APS or digital crop frame. The crop factor on 1/2 frame doesn't behave the same as APS or digital crop. Using a 50mm on APS or crop sensors gives me a cropped in field of view that seems like I'm shooting a longer focal length. On classic 1/2 frame, that is shooting vertical, it still feels like I'm shooting a 50mm focal but the sides are cropped off if that makes any sense. My field of view is restricted on the sides but my over all sense of field feels the same. It doesn't feel 'cramped' the same way it would on APS or cropped digital. I'm not 100% sure I can express it in words. My 50mm still feels like a 50mm, the 28 still feels 28. I don't get the same feeling on a different crop ratio.
 

wiltw

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True 'half frame' gives a capture area that is 18mm x 24mm...it is as if you shot 135 format film with same FL, but in the darkroom only printed 18mm x 244mm section of the negative!

An 18mm lens would capture the same FOV (at the same distance) as using 24mm FL on 135 format.
Using a 50mm lens on half frame camera would yield same FOV as using 67mm lens on 135 format camera (lens FL / frame height = 2.78)
 

Chan Tran

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APS-C and Half frame are about the same. The reason you feel cramped with an APS-C digital camera because they make the viewfinder too small.
 

wiltw

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APS-C and Half frame are about the same. The reason you feel cramped with an APS-C digital camera because they make the viewfinder too small.

...modern cameras squeeze in tons of camera status information surrounding the focusing screen, so the focus screen magnificaiton is usually much less than 0.9x,
 
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Cholentpot

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APS-C and Half frame are about the same. The reason you feel cramped with an APS-C digital camera because they make the viewfinder too small.

Half-frame is cropped different than APS though. It's half the film size, APS is shrunk down all around. I'm getting the same 24mm top to bottom that I don't get with APS.
 

Chan Tran

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Half-frame is cropped different than APS though. It's half the film size, APS is shrunk down all around. I'm getting the same 24mm top to bottom that I don't get with APS.

It doesn't matter how you shrink it. The only thing that count is the width and height dimension of the frame. And the 2 formats are close. You want more top and bottom just turn the APS-C camera vertically.
 

MattKing

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Turn your half frame camera 90 degrees, and you will find that the experience will be much closer to the experience enjoyed with the larger APS-C camera.
 

runswithsizzers

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If oriented vertically, the APS-C sensor on my Fuji X-T1 is 23.6mm tall x 15.6mm wide.
If truly half-frame, the image part of the negative would be 24mm tall x 18mm wide, but there may be some small varience among manufacturers. For example, Pentax lists the frame size for their new Pentax 17 half-frame film camera as 24mm x 17mm.

It seems like APS-C and half-frame should be close enough to the same size to generalize and say, any given focal length lens should result in about the same field-of-view on either format. But I have never used a half-frame camera, so maybe there is enough difference to matter, I don't know.

For my APS-C sensor, the ratio of the long side divided by the short side is 1.51, very close to the 1.50 ratio for full-frame. For the Pentax half-frame, the ratio is 1.41, so it is a slightly "fatter" rectangle than APS-C or full frame. And a true half-frame (24mm x 18mm) would be even fatter, 1.33. (As the ratio approaches 1.0, the shape of the frame becomes more square.)
 
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Cholentpot

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I've found the ratio varies from camera to camera. The Univex Mercury is half frame but the frame tends to be wider than the Pen F. Same goes for the Fuji Half. The frame is a bit wider than the Pen EE3.

You're all right though, I think viewing the photo in native vertical makes it seem more natural than looking at an APS sized image.
 

xkaes

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Source: http://www.subclub.org/shop/halframe.htm
 
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r_a_feldman

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Olympus, for the Pen F, used a factor of 1.414:1 (based on a comparison of the frame areas). APS-C is usually given as a factor of 1.5:1.

Peter Dechert, in his book on the Olympus Pen F series, discusses (p. 19 and Appendix C) five different ways of looking at the factor that range from 1.333:1 to 1.5:1, but he settles on 1.4:1 “As a practical matter … to make calculation simple”.
 

ivan35mm

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definitely with the majority here, as i’ve always assumed 1.4x for my yashica samurai x3.0

the 25mm f3.5 lens on the samurai reminds me of a roughly 35mm lens equivalent on 35mm cameras.

regardless, love to see others shooting half frame such a great format. printing big from half frame photos looks amazing.
 

koraks

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It doesn't feel 'cramped' the same way it would on APS or cropped digital.

Yeah, I understand. Objectively it may turn out to be the same thing, but it can feel differently. I feel that a normal focal length is a little wider or narrower depending on the film format I shoot at (35mm, medium format, large format). Much of that effect is entirely subjective. Funny eh? I can see how it's even more pronounced if you're 'forced' towards portrait on one format and landscape on another.
 

xkaes

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The Samurai X3.0 (and later Z models) had a 25-75mm motorized zoom lens, which gives an image size approximately the same as a 35-105mm zoom in full-frame.
 
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Cholentpot

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It's subjective I guess. I think also half-frame is cropped on one aspect instead of all around. Has a different feel. I can't make do with a 50mm for walkaround on an APS but with half frame it did just fine.
 

loccdor

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Part subjective, part geometric.

What I found about half-frame is since I often shoot 35mm in portrait mode anyway, the default being in portrait mode is a bonus.

If you shoot full frame 35mm in landscape and half-frame in portrait, that can be part of the disconnect.
 

wiltw

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Indeed the ratio of 'normal' FL vs. frame's narrow dimension is not very uniform, even within a single format, much less across formats...
  • 135 format 'normal' varies from about 1.875x (vertical frame dimension) with 45mm FL 'normal' to 2.42x with 58mm 'normal' lens
  • MF 'normal' varies from 1.42x (Hassy 80mm with 56mm frame) to 1.6x (Mamiya RB67 90mm with 56.5mm frame) to 1.81x (Pentax 645 75mm with 41.5mm frame)
  • LF 'normal' is 1.63x (150mm FL with 93mm vertical frame)
...so the perception can vary widely simply with the selection of which 'normal' (45mm, 50mm, 52mm, 55mm 58mm were all 'normal' from various manufacturers of 135) to which specific model of medium format camera.
Adding to the perception issue is the fact that some viewfinders view 100% of the actual film image while others only view 90% of the film image.
 
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ic-racer

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What is a crop factor. What are you cropping? If you print full frame, like many of us do here, there is no crop factor.
 

Chan Tran

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What is a crop factor. What are you cropping? If you print full frame, like many of us do here, there is no crop factor.

The half frame camera or any camera back in the old days didn't have crop factor (I never heard the term back then). The term crop factor was invented when manufacturers made cameras with smaller sensor but use lenses designed for the larger format that was when I started to hear about the crop factor. Some of these cameras had the mirror the same size as the regular 35mm camera. Just a mask in the viewfinder. That's because when people used the exact same lenses they had but the field of view is smaller than before.
 
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Cholentpot

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What is a crop factor. What are you cropping? If you print full frame, like many of us do here, there is no crop factor.

I still shoot APS film, crop factor would be using my full frame lenses on an APS camera body.
 

wiltw

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I still shoot APS film, crop factor would be using my full frame lenses on an APS camera body.

...and the so-called crop factor for half-frame would be calculated 18/36 = 0.5, just like Canon dSLR APS-C was orignally calculated 15/36 = 0.6 when its sensor measured 15 x 22.5mm and the factor stuck even when sensor dimensions were different cause the mental crutch did not need to be precise.
 
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runswithsizzers

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I believe the term "crop factor" was created as a sort of Rosetta Stone to help "translate" the focal length of a lens into terms relative to the 135 format. This article discusses it in more detail: https://photographylife.com/what-is-crop-factor

I have a Fuji digital camera with an APS-C sensor, and among Fuji users, the commonly accepted crop factor for our APS-C sensors is 1.5. I believe it is calculated by dividing the diagonal of the 24mm x 36mm film frame by the diagonal of the APS-C sensor (which for my Fuji is 23.6mm x 15.6mm).

For an example of how the crop factor might be used, consider:
When used on a full-frame camera (35mm format), we generally consider something around 50mm focal length to give a more-or-less "normal" field of view. When used on an APS-C sensor, a 35mm lens is considered to give a similar "normal" field of view. 35mm x 1.5 = 52.5mm

In other words, multiplying the focal length of a lens times the crop factor tells us what the "equivalent focal length" would be within a 35mm system. Or conversely, if you want to know what focal length when used with APS-C would give an equivalent field of view to a 28mm lens when used with a full frame camera, then multiply by the reciprocal of 1.5 (0.667). 28 x 0.667 = 18.7mm.

The whole idea of equivalent focal length is somewhat problematic, but it may make it easier for those of us who grew up with 35mm format cameras to relate to lenses used with other formats.
 

wiltw

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Interestingly, I just ran across what I consider to an anomoly in the deterimation of 'crop factor for a format with a different aspect ratio of the frame...

In the case of the Micro 4/3 format:
  1. The image sensor of Four Thirds = 18 mm × 13.5 mm (22.5 mm diagonal),
  2. M4/3 format has imaging area of 17.3 mm × 13.0 mm (21.63 mm diagonal),
  3. its stated crop factor is 2.0
...and examining
  1. if we compare frame height of the sensor, 24mm / 13.5mm is NOT 2
  2. if we compare frame height of the image area, 24mm/13mm is NOT 2,
  3. if we compare frame sensor diagonal (which on 4/3 is NOT proportional to FF!) , 43.2mm/22.5mm is NOT 2
  4. if we compare frame image diagonal (which on 4/3 is NOT proportional to FF!), 43.2mm/21.63mm is 2

So although the aspect ratio is not the same across formats, the diagonal FOV is used for comparison of dissimilar format aspect ratios, and for the stated crop factor.

If one used 13mm lens on 4/3 format, and used 24mm lens on 135 format, both would see the identical suubject height in their respective frames, and the stated crop factor for the format would be 24mm/13mm = 1.85 rather than 2.0
 

wiltw

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Consider that they even have crop factor for format that is larger than 24x36mm.

And since 24x36 is actually a crop of all the larger formats, the 'crop factor' is proven to be a mental crutch for FL 'equivalence' to change from format to format for those unaccustomed to working in different formats. (I shot in 4 formats but never previously used any 'crop factor' -- except initially when going from 135 to digital APS-C...using the same set of lenses for both, which had never happened before.)
 
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