Gum printers: what paper and sizing are you using?

[pjbtx]

In my experience, Fabriano Artistico (both extra white and traditional) is quite stable in that shrinkage is bit less than other papers I use. Remember—papers such as those are 100% cotton and will shrink after becoming wet—just like laundry! The larger the sheet/image you print, the more noticeable the shrinkage will appear. It's just one of many factors to deal with in gum printing.

Paper sized by the manufacturer with AKD (such as Fabriano) are my first choice of papers for gum printing. AKD (in essence an emulsified wax) migrates into the paper and forms a bond that is difficult to remove even after repeated soaking and washing—so don't worry about losing your AKD sizing when presoaking the paper. Yes, the surface of the paper will become just a bit rougher as a result. If that is a major concern to you, then adding supplemental size to recreate a smooth surface might need to be considered. Supplemental size would also be a consideration if you require a very broad range of pigment choices.

Otherwise, simply locate pigments which will not stain the paper if you wish to have images with contrast and definition. Of course, that may take a bit of leg work on your part—but not any more than the leg work required to learn and manage supplemental sizing techniques, especially those mentioned in previous posts. I think you will find AKD papers will provide you with a larger selection of non-staining pigments than papers sized by the manufacturer with other materials.

Hope that helps.

 

[phritz phantom]

BTW, in my understanding, preshrinking is not done to "remove the paper's internal sizing" (that's something we absolutely don't want to do) but to relax the paper's fibers as much as possible, in order to "reset" their position/orientation, letting them to reorganize in a pretty similar fashion in the subsequent development baths, for better dimensional stability. Also, preshrinking raise the paper's nap a little bit which is good for adhesion of gum emulsion. (Significant for the first layer only; subsequent layers will have a paper with raised nap after the first development bath whether you preshrink or not.)

Regards,
Loris.

the reason why p. blackburn loves the paper so much, is because its size is based on AKD. iirc the substance is considered a wax and should be insoluble in water. so it don't think it can wash off in the preshrink bath.
here is a little info on the substance i just found:
here

i think someone recently mentioned that the substance is also available in bottles and could be used as a paper size. i don't think many people have tried this so far. could be worth some experimentation.


edit:
ah, sorry, looks like pjbtx already said most of that. i must have skipped his post when reading this page.

 

[pjbtx]

edit:
ah, sorry, looks like pjbtx already said most of that. i must have skipped his post when reading this page.

Hello Phritz!
I'm P. Blackburn, aka pjbtx, aka Peter J. Blackburn. Yes, the waxy characteristic of AKD prevents it from easily washing away. It's easy to forget that it acts as a wax since in a paper formulation is dosen't seem to feel at all as wax.

 

[phritz phantom]

Hello Phritz!
I'm P. Blackburn, aka pjbtx, aka Peter J. Blackburn. Yes, the waxy characteristic of AKD prevents it from easily washing away. It's easy to forget that it acts as a wax since in a paper formulation is dosen't seem to feel at all as wax.

ah good to know and to have such a respected source available.
i already suspected it after reading your first post in this thread, but wasn't sure whether it was a signature or the source for the citation of the article. ... then i forgot about it again.

 

[pjbtx]

Thanks Phritz for the kind words. I hope BarryS has received some ideas for how to proceed with his gum work. He certainly has been given a lot of choices. That's one of the great aspects of gum printing—all the creative choices and how one picks and chooses from them to create unique and wonderful images.

Speaking of which, Phritz, I believe I've seen some of your images, of children if I recall correctly, on another forum. Wonderful, gentle interpretations!

As for Denise, all I can say in response to your comment, "printing on plain Fabriano is a wonderfully simple proposition"—I wholeheartedly agree and encourage others to try it! But, to each, his or her own. We all have differing preferences, goals, and styles.

My busy schedule keeps me from participating on forums as much as I would like. This has been a light week for me which enabled me to catch BarryS’ post. I couldn't help myself but to give Barry another viewpoint—one that is, in my opinion, seldom expressed.

Cheers to all!

Peter J. Blackburn

 

[Loris Medici]

In my experience, Fabriano Artistico (both extra white and traditional) is quite stable in that shrinkage is bit less than other papers I use. Remember—papers such as those are 100% cotton and will shrink after becoming wet—just like laundry! The larger the sheet/image you print, the more noticeable the shrinkage will appear. It's just one of many factors to deal with in gum printing.

IME, Fabriano Artistico 300gsm (140lb) will shrink further and further with every gum layer I put on it, even at an image size of 8x10". (Albeit the shrinkage ratio decreases with every layer; most shrinkage in the first two, then negligible - but still there.) So, again it's not the holy grail; why it behaves so much different for you and me (again) depends on our materials / conditions and printing procedures. (I don't use 14 Baumé lithographer's gum for instance, it's thinner than what I like / I'm used to...) I know a master printer (UK based) who prefers 640gsm (300lb) just because it's very stable dimensionally -> not something they experience with the 300gsm version...

Paper sized by the manufacturer with AKD (such as Fabriano) are my first choice of papers for gum printing.

As a side note I will add that AKD sized papers are better for iron processes too. Especially for pure platinum (which doesn't like gelatin sizing) and new cyanotype / argyrotype / new chrysotype - these are pretty picky when it comes to paper choice and they excel with AKD sized papers, as long as there isn't any other alien / hostile material in the paper's formulation.

...
Supplemental size would also be a consideration if you require a very broad range of pigment choices.

Otherwise, simply locate pigments which will not stain the paper if you wish to have images with contrast and definition. Of course, that may take a bit of leg work on your part—but not any more than the leg work required to learn and manage supplemental sizing techniques, especially those mentioned in previous posts. I think you will find AKD papers will provide you with a larger selection of non-staining pigments than papers sized by the manufacturer with other materials.

I have not much pigment choices where I live (Istanbul, Turkey); I can buy only Schmincke paint in tubes (watercolor) or Schmincke dry pigment. Other brands (including the only other good one -> W&N, the rest are all cheap beginners / student grade paints) are only sold in pans or in oil / acrylic binder -> not suitable for gum printing. Therefore your kind advice / suggestion doesn't work for me. Besides, I'd prefer to print instead of dab test each and every pigment / paint I can obtain. With gum the best learning tool is to print, I've learned that I have to size the paper in order to make my paints work the way I want them to work. (= Specular highlights should remain paper white.)

I think all this sizing subject is becoming an issue with a way too much importance than it has to be actually. I understand some don't want to (or can't) use aldehydes because they have asthma / allergy (extra sensitivity) or they can't obtain them due local regulations. But for those without these problems who feel the need to size their paper, good old gelatin with formalin hardener is a certain and easy to learn / easy to apply method. See Kerik's previous posts; not something to exaggerate that much. I have managed to do it (perfectly) in my first trial and it has never let me down since then...

OTOH, I'm currently trying a PVAc dispersion transparent paper / cardboard / wood glue (which I can obtain locally for a very good price) as sizing with very promising results (both aesthetically and technically). I may opt to switch to that later because it's faster (not that I absolutely need that speed but it's a nice tool in a workshop situation) and / or will probably let me print on alternative surfaces like aluminum sheets / wood boards in a much easier way than my current method... (Still testing the latter.)

My 2c, FWIW...

Regards,
Loris.

P.S. BTW, I think this one was a nice discussion with plenty useful information. Thanks much to you and to all other participants, for the valuable contributions / opinions.

 

[Barry S]

Everyone's advice has been invaluable and I spent a good portion of my weekend gum printing. I'm really enjoying the process. The Fabriano Artistico is working nicely for me and some of the pigments I'm using clear fairly well (if not completely). I even tried some dry pigment and had some preliminary success, although I still have work to do to find the optimal concentration and method of dispersion. I've decide that I prefer the felt side to the wire side of the paper--possibly because I'm contact printing 4x5 negatives and the grid of the wire impression seems a bit intrusive at that scale. For single layer gums, I think I prefer a very slight pigment stain as opposed to pure paper white in the highlights. However, I can see that in a three layer gum, the stain build up might be objectionable.

If anyone has suggestions for favorite pigments, I'd appreciate your advice. I've had good results with Windsor and Newton Windsor Red and with Dale Rowney Burnt Sienna. Windsor and Newton Ivory Black was a disaster, so I'm looking for a good black. I'd also like to find a good burnt umber or other very dark brown pigment.

My next steps will be ordering some gelatin and hardener, testing more pigments, and figuring out how to register my negatives for multiple passes.

 

[pjbtx]

Loris:

I am so sorry to hear of all the issues you have experienced the FA paper. I really have no explanation for the shrinking problem you are facing. I use 140lb for portfolio images and 300lb for gallery work. Neither one gives me trouble with shrinking provided I soak them enough, usually at least 45 minutes. With very large images, I soak and dry twice.

As for pigments, I'll bet if you go through the entire line of Schminke, you will most likely find a pigment or two, maybe three that will not stain. Obviously, that may not be enough for you, especially for tricolor work. Adding supplemental size, seems for you, a requirement not an option.

I've not tried Schminke (except in dry pigments), but have gone down the entire line of Sennelier, W&N and others have found a few that work well in each line. Each line of pigment manufactures will have a few that will work. When you add it all up, there are quite a few which will work. I understand that in your situation and where you are located, supplies are limited. I wish you well on you PVAc—sounds quite interesting.

Please—I am not anti-size! If you need it, go for it. If one wants to use it, it's available. It works and it's good. It seems that the vast majority of gum printers, even yourself, use it effectively. You will never get any argument from me on that issue. I used to use it myself a long time ago. I also think that the sizing information presented in this series of posts is very good and helpful.

However, having stated that, I just don't think it right or fair that when one wants to begin gum printing, one should be taught to automatically get the formalin and gelatin to do beginner work or professional work. There are other options—and all should be presented and considered with each artist deciding for themselves what works best for them. But they can't make decisions without information and I think that is the purpose of this forum.

Peter J. Blackburn

 

[Katharine Thayer]

If anyone has suggestions for favorite pigments, I'd appreciate your advice. I've had good results with Windsor and Newton Windsor Red and with Dale Rowney Burnt Sienna. Windsor and Newton Ivory Black was a disaster, so I'm looking for a good black. I'd also like to find a good burnt umber or other very dark brown pigment.

Barry, I'm curious what made the ivory black "a disaster" for you, as ivory black is not typically a problematic pigment. In fact, ivory black mixed not too heavy makes a gorgeous deep rich chocolate brown, the best dark brown I know of. It's unlikely that you would be able to print burnt umber dark enough to make a "very dark brown," as like most earth pigments, it is a fairly weak pigment.
Katharine Thayer

 

[phritz phantom]

Speaking of which, Phritz, I believe I've seen some of your images, of children if I recall correctly, on another forum. Wonderful, gentle interpretations!

that's nice of you and i wish i could take the credit for those images, but those were certainly not mine. i have never made a photo of children and i've hardly posted any images online... well, except ugly test strips lately, because the inconsistency in my gum printing drives me nuts.

i think i agree with you on the point that the need for size might discourage beginners from taking up gum printing. stomaching the msds from the dichromate alone is enough. as soon one is "hooked" on the process, it doesn't make much difference, since most people tend to go every way that achieves the wanted results. even though i'm printing gum for a while now, i still try every way around the "classic size". probably this is the reason, why i'm punished with "inconsistencies".

 

[Jeremy]

i still try every way around the "classic size". probably this is the reason, why i'm punished with "inconsistencies".

The above comment coupled with new gum printers not knowing what "pigment stain" and "dichromate stain" look like are the reasons I always have beginning gum printers size their papers.

I think it would take a non-beginning gum printer and/or experienced watercolor painter to be comfortable in testing their pigments the way you're saying, Peter.

Now if there was a list of "known non-staining pigments on AKD sized papers" it would be different (hint, hint).

 

[phritz phantom]

Now if there was a list of "known non-staining pigments on AKD sized papers" it would be different (hint, hint).

well, one could maybe do that. but one should never forget that there are an abundance of things that influence stain.
it is quite known- and i experienced it myself a lot lately, unfortunately - that a little bit of uv-exposure makes for less stain. in my case: there was no noticable stain in the highlights of an image, but there was noticable stain in an areas that got zero uv-exposure (they were under cardboard).

i think with a list like proposed one would maybe elimintae a lot of pigments which show a stain that could be very much manageable.

 

[Barry S]

Barry, I'm curious what made the ivory black "a disaster" for you, as ivory black is not typically a problematic pigment. In fact, ivory black mixed not too heavy makes a gorgeous deep rich chocolate brown, the best dark brown I know of. It's unlikely that you would be able to print burnt umber dark enough to make a "very dark brown," as like most earth pigments, it is a fairly weak pigment.
Katharine Thayer

Katherine-- I got very gritty, blotchy results with the W&N Ivory Black. It looked like it wasn't completely soluble in the mixture. I tried it based on the recommendations in the black pigment thread, but I've also seen recommendations for lamp black from other sources. I'll give it another try and vary the concentration, but it looked pretty bad.

 

[pjbtx]

I got very gritty, blotchy results with the W&N Ivory Black. It looked like it wasn't completely soluble in the mixture. I tried it based on the recommendations in the black pigment thread, but I've also seen recommendations for lamp black from other sources. I'll give it another try and vary the concentration, but it looked pretty bad.

Hi Barry S:

Here's a suggestion—try Sennelier Lamp Black if you're using FA paper without adding size. As for a burnt umber, try the Lukas line. Also, if you're trying out pigments, don't be afraid to experiment with gouache and dry pigments in addition to watercolor. Again, those are just my suggestions and I have no desire to justify those choices to anyone.

Hi Jeremy—I read your "hint, hint." A problem with making a list of non-staining pigments is that manufacturers have a tendency to change tube paint formulation which can affect stain. Besides, when artists make tests on their own, whether a simple dab test or printing Stouffer scales, they acquire valuable information from which they can learn and "own."

Additionally, not all AKD papers are the same. For example, Waterford is an AKD paper—but with an additional gelatin surface size. That makes it perform quite differently than FA. It is more prone to staining, ah, but what beautiful stain it is! When I want stain, I reach for the Waterford.

I suppose you (along with others) and I will just simply need to agree to disagree as to whether adding size or not is appropriate for beginners. I didn't realize my approach was so radical and difficult to grasp. So be it.

My overall advice, for both here and as stated in articles on another website, is for artists to do their own legwork and learn from their own legwork.

If I can be of further help to anyone, feel free to contact me personally at blackburnap@hotmail.com

Adios and much success with your gum printing everyone!

 

[Lukas Werth]

Katherine-- I got very gritty, blotchy results with the W&N Ivory Black. It looked like it wasn't completely soluble in the mixture.

Yes, now that I read this, I remember I had this issue many years ago with, if I am not altogether mistaken, W&N ivory black. Since then, I found other ivory blacks working very well, and also a pigment called "bone black" from Kremer. It behaves and looks very much like ivory black.

Some pigments for some reason just don't seem to work. Last year I had a problem with soem cadmium pigments, most notably with a beutiful cadmium purple (also from Kremer). It just wouldn't clear, try as I might. Has anybody had a simila experience?

 

[Katharine Thayer]

Well, this is why I generally refer to pigments by number rather than name. PBk9, bone or ivory black, was once made from burned ivory; now is made from burned bone. So it's not surprising that your "bone black" "looks and behaves very much like ivory black" it's most probable that they're the same pigment.

I've never found a pigment that didn't work for gum printing, and I've printed (at least as a test) just about every pigment that's used in watercolor paints. I've heard anecdotes about brands that didn't work well for gum printing, but I haven't tried a lot of different brands; I've pretty much stuck to M. Graham and Daniel Smith. I've never used Winsor & Newton paints, considering them overpriced and overhyped, so can't speak to the problems related here with W&N paint.

 

[donbga]

Some pigments for some reason just don't seem to work. Last year I had a problem with soem cadmium pigments, most notably with a beutiful cadmium purple (also from Kremer). It just wouldn't clear, try as I might. Has anybody had a simila experience?

Lukas,

I've not used that particular pigment (Kremer) but I have had problems with magenta or purple pigments not wanting to develop. I use a spray bottle that produces a very fine mist to induce development. Used patiently it works very well, but one has to work carefully. Don't over do the spraying or the entire layer will float away. I'm not sure if this makes sense but it's a technique that can be used.

 

[dwross]

I've just recently started using Daniel Smith's 'Lunar Black'. I love its tone and it handles very well -- clears easily and thoroughly on Fabriano without added sizing. I'll post a link to a picture of it, but really it's just a nice, neutral, clean black that, in the words of gum master Katharine Thayer, 'plays well with others'. (second set of images, right hand side)

http://www.thelightfarm.com/Map/Silvergum/SilvergumAdvanced/SilvergumPart4.htm

 

[Barry S]

I guess I'm going to have to mail order some paints and pigments. I've been checking the local art stores and they don't carry most of the brands mentioned. There's plenty of W&N watercolors, but I agree that they're expensive. I saw the Lunar Black on the Daniel Smith site and I would have never ordered it based on its formulation for heavy reticulation, but there you go--alt process never claimed to be logical.

 

[dwross]

The granulating pigment description put me off for a bit, too. I don't usually go that direction, but I was on a mission to find the right black to be a 'k-layer' with my favorite color set. If there is any appearance of reticulation or granulation in the dried Lunar Black layer, I think it actually works very well under subsequent color layers. But, no one ever said gum was a 'one size fits all' art form (or logical )

Here's an extreme crop.

 

[Jeremy]

I've been happy with M. Graham Ivory Black.