Group Portraiture with 8x10

[Peter De Smidt]

My daughter's Judo instructor is closing her dojo after 30 years in judo. I would like to make a photograph of her in the dojo with as many of her students as possible. (That could be anywhere from about 20 to 50 people.) The dojo is 40ftx40ft with a 20 ft high black ceiling. I plan to use a Sinar P 8x10 with either a 210 Fuji-W, a 210 or 240 G-Claron, or a 240mm Zeiss Germinar. (I'll take some pictures with all the lenses and see which one I like the best.) I'll use either Tri-x or HP5+ to get as much speed as possible.

My question is about lighting, as I've never shot a group like this. I have two photogenic "1500" monolights, and I could probably put my hands on a couple 750s that a friend has. What kind of light modifiers and light setup would you suggest for this kind of group? (I'm hoping to shoot at f16 or f22 if possible.)

Any advice appreciated.

-Peter

 

[David H. Bebbington]

I would start with the lens. If the group of people are going to be spread out, use a lens (it sounds like your Fuji would be the better bet than G-Clarons) which will allow some front tilt and still cover the full 8x10" at full aperture or stopped down 1 stop. If you use back tilt, people's heads will turn a funny shape, if you have to stop your lens down a lot, you will never have enough light! As regards a lighting set-up, the first thing is to get the light even, umbrellas or softboxes would probably be a good idea, light stands that go up to eight or ten feet would be too. You will probably have to place the lights at either side of the camera, if the ceiling is black there is no possibility of bouncing any light off this. If at all possible take an "assistant" (wife, friend, etc.) because you will need to set up, preferably with the room empty, but if the room is full, you will need to set up quickly and with 2 or more pairs of hands you can fire the flashes and take meter readings around the room to see that the light is even. One last thing - if you have light stands up at ten feet or more, if at all possible put a sandbag over one leg of each stand, if there are lots of kids milling about, one is sure to trip over a stand, and keep your cables tidy - if possible, gaffer-tape them to the floor or assign an assistant to stand guard over them. Photographers, even very big ones like me, can walk across a floor with 100 cables and miss them all, members of the public can't. And make sure either you or the hall or the teacher has public liability insurance - you may not be allowed to do the pix if you haven't.

Regards,

David

 

[Pinholemaster]

You could simply use 45° copy light, but that tends to be a little harsh.

Me, I'd bounce them evenly across the ceiling to smooth out the light.

Light modifiers will cut f/stops from your watt seconds, and thus you'll need more lights, or more watt seconds.

I once had to light and photograph the entire staff of the Kennedy Center in the Opera House. I set up the 4x5 camera in the President's box and had thousands and thousands of watt seconds of light spread across the balcony. We got a good f/stop to keep everyone in focus.

Unfortunately a few stage hands in the back row still had to do dumb things to call attention to themselves in the photo. I'm sure the Director of the Kennedy Center took names. Grin.

 

[David H. Bebbington]

Me, I'd bounce them evenly across the ceiling to smooth out the light.

QUOTE]

The ceiling is black ...

 

[Roger Hicks]

Me, I'd bounce them evenly across the ceiling to smooth out the light.

20 foot black ceiling...

Consider securing white bedsheets, or similar, it at all possible, just below the ceiling. Or possibly well below the ceiling, suspended from lighting stands or the like. Check the Avenger catalogue and see what's available for hire locally.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Peter De Smidt]

Thanks for all of the advice so far.

You can see a color shot of the dojo at www.desmidt.net/Judo/Judo.htm . I doubt that I'll be able to put white reflective material along the ceiling. I don't live in a big city, and so renting lighting reflectors is probably out. (Please note, I'm doing this for free, and I don't have a lot money to spend on it.) I do have a Photoflex Extra Large softbox which I could fit two lights in, but I'll probably lose too much light. (I'll set it up outside at night and see what kind of f-stop I get. Outdoors at night should give me a close approximation of the conditions in the dojo.) I do have a bunch of 12ft sturdy lightstands.

I'm contemplating shooting the group close to the back wall, as othersize I risk having them appear to be in a black cavern. Perhaps I should use the small umbrella reflector dish (just the dish, no umbrella) with one layer of diffusion over it to minimize hotspots. Thoughts?

If worse comes to worse, I could use a Fuji GSW690III, but why have an 8x10 if I'm not going to use it?

 

[David H. Bebbington]

One dodge for cutting down the area you need to light (and also getting some dramatic tension into the shot) is to get the camera up as high as you can (do you have a tall tripod? It doesn't have to be super-rigid if you're using flash) and angle down to photograph the group. You could well fit all the people into an area 25 feet wide, putting the lights up high either side of the camera and pointing them down makes it much easier to get even illumination, and you wouldn't need as much lens tilt either! Worth a thought?

Best regards,

David

 

[Peter De Smidt]

Hi David,

Thanks for the suggestion. With what I have, I can probably get the lens about 9 feet up.

 

[MattKing]

The floor is light, so at least there will be some reflection filling eye-shadows etc.

I assume as well that as it is a judo club, it won't be a problem having at least some of the people sitting on the floor. This allows a tighter grouping.

Can you get some benches or other form of risers, also to allow a tighter grouping?

You may also want to consider, in addition to a single full group shot, several shots of smaller groups (e.g. graduates from the first, second and third decade of the organization's history).

Bedsheets on the side wall might help as well, assuming that you are shooting from side to side.

Hope this works out for you.

Matt

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

Big pieces of Foamcore as reflectors- you can stand them up/tape them to the walls, and bounce the lights off them.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Big pieces of Foamcore as reflectors- you can stand them up/tape them to the walls, and bounce the lights off them.

Not even foamcore -- just insulating Styrofoam. 8x4 foot sheets are absurdly cheap.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Peter De Smidt]

I do have a soft box 54x72", which is just a little smaller than a full sheet of insulating Styrofoam. What advantage would using sheets of styrofoam be over the softbox with two strobes in it?

I realize that if this were to be a shot attempting to show the whole area well-lit that the best way to go would be to put white sheets/panels on the ceiling and bounce as much light as possible off of them for background light. But this isn't in the cards. (I have to be very carefull about damaging the special mats, and I don't have a step ladder tall enough to reach the ceiling.)

Right now the plan, thanks to a lot of suggestions here, is to group the people tightly with some sitting on the floor, some kneeling and some standing, all fairly close to the wall. I'd then put the lens height at approximately waist level with the back plumb and a little lens tilt. The 54x72" softbox would be centered on the camera and a little above it. With that big of a light in a fairly frontal position, I'm not sure if I'd need any fill, but I'll have a sheet of white styrofoam that I can pop on the floor if needed. Hopfully I'll get F11. If I can't get F11, then I'll probably move to the Fuji GSW690III with the same setup and shoot at f8. When it get's dark, I'll set up the light outside and see what kind of readings I get. (It's too big for me to setup in my house, and the light walls might give to optimistic of a reading.)

 

[MikeK]

My daughter's Judo instructor is closing her dojo after 30 years in judo. I would like to make a photograph of her in the dojo with as many of her students as possible. (That could be anywhere from about 20 to 50 people.) The dojo is 40ftx40ft with a 20 ft high black ceiling. I plan to use a Sinar P 8x10 with either a 210 Fuji-W, a 210 or 240 G-Claron, or a 240mm Zeiss Germinar. (I'll take some pictures with all the lenses and see which one I like the best.) I'll use either Tri-x or HP5+ to get as much speed as possible.

My question is about lighting, as I've never shot a group like this. I have two photogenic "1500" monolights, and I could probably put my hands on a couple 750s that a friend has. What kind of light modifiers and light setup would you suggest for this kind of group? (I'm hoping to shoot at f16 or f22 if possible.)

Any advice appreciated.

-Peter

While lighting can be a challenge and many folks have chimed in here; you also need to consider the height of the camera needed to get that many people included and in focus. The height of the camera ensures you get a good view of people both at the front and rear of the group. Also the higher the camera the less lens tilt needed to get everything in focus and lessen the need for a small f-stop - which will go some ways to help with your lighting challenge

I did a group shot this large and ended up borrowing a step ladder to be able to compose the scene.- OK so I am short - but the camera ended up around 6 feet in height to get my scene to work

Mike

Good luck with this project sound both fun and a challenge

Mike