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hrst

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How come the HD movies(shot on film) i see on my computer have very less noise?

Sometimes (or too often) they sadly use noise reduction to reduce grain. Noise reduction algorithms with motion picture can be much more efficient than with still images because temporal information (adjacent frames) can be used.

However, noise reduction always loses some image information.

35mm movie frame at 1920x1080 always shows some grain if there is no noise reduction done. Look at fade-from-blacks & fade-to-blacks, they are difficult for motion detection algorithms used in temporal noise reducers/smoothers, thus these quick fades will usually show the "real" film grain (+ compression artefacts).
 

hrst

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I had always thought that though scanning doesn't "increase" grain per se, severe noise was an aliasing artifact caused by a mismatch between the scanning frequency and the grain frequency, and thus ought to be treatable with an optical low pass filter just below the scanner's Nyquist frequency, which I assume is not implemented in consumer scanners for cost reasons?

Yes, this is very easy to demonstrate;

Take any high-resolution image that have some graininess or noise. Film scan, or even digital camera at high ISO is ok.

Make resized versions at 50%, 25%, 10% using "nearest neighbor" or "pixel resize" function instead of the better functions; this takes only every second/fourth/tenth pixel to make the smaller image and ignores other pixels. This simulates a scanner with fill ratio of 50%, 25% or 10%; the light (information) between the final pixels is lost. You can see that even at the very small size, at 10%, the graininess will remain (almost) the same as in the large image viewed at 100%!! It's a funny effect but simulates very well what happens in scanner to a less severe extent.

Drum scanners avoid this kind of problems by slightly overlapping pixels. With CCD, this is not possible, and there will always be some light loss between the pixels, and that will always lead to a slight grain increase.

But, the most important reason for grain increase in scans is the display resolution as I told earlier in this thread. This is never mentioned anywhere! It's also easy to demonstrate; resize your image to fit about 30% of your screen and notice the grain; then resize the (original) image to fill the screen and go three times further away from the screen; the image will fit the same area in your vision but will definitely look less grainy as it has now higher resolution (more pixels) and less interpolation and sharpening.

Well, this is better suited to hybridphoto.com. :rolleyes:
 
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F80p

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@hrst: yes adjacent frames can be used to single out noise. that will be mush more efficient.
There will be some cross platform interest in hybrid process too for everybody!!!
I think i am getting interest in printing too! If it is affordable and available i might even try. My main interest would be colour though. One question(i am the novice of novice in printing)
Cant the same paper used in the digital minilabs be used for making prints with the enlarger the traditional way? I am afraid i may not get the traditional paper here. I havent tried though!
 
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Anon Ymous

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Cant the same paper used in the digital minilabs be used for making prints with the enlarger the traditional way? I am afraid i may not get the traditional paper here. I havent tried though!

That depends. Some papers are optimised for digital minilabs and won't give good results in an analog workflow. For instance, Kodak's Supra Endura and Ultra Endura can be used traditionally. The New SUPRA ENDURA VC Digital Paper can't. In any case, please update your profile and state your country. You'll get more relevant tips this way regarding product availability.
 

hrst

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I REALLY recommend analog color negative printing (RA-4 process); it's easy, quite quick to learn, CHEAP (1/2...1/3 price of the typical digital prints of same size) and gives nice, controllable results without "digital surprises". You'll need an enlarger with dichroic filter head, the following chemicals:
http://www.ag-photographic.co.uk/kodak-ra4-developer-kit-4x5l-295-p.asp and http://www.ag-photographic.co.uk/kodak-ra4-blix-kit-4x5l-296-p.asp (no starter needed), and some paper - buy Supra Endura while it lasts!

If you will ever buy Tetenal or other 3rd brand chemicals that have single-part concentrates for developer and/or blix, which I don't recommend, check the production serial number from the box and ask the manufacturer for the manufacture date and don't buy it if it's older than 6 months.
 

steelneck

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Scanning pictures, either from enlargements or film is AD-conversion. In most other AD-conversion cases people know that they need at lest double the digital sampling rate to get a decent recording of the analog signal, at least double. But very few view scanning as the AD-conversion it actually is.

Take for example a good film that can capture 60 lpmm, that is 120 pixels per millimeter. Now take twise that resolution to get the double sampling rate, that is 240. 240 pixels per millimeter is 6096 ppi! And this was only the usual low contrast measurment, at high contrast like 1000:1 films can have much higher resolution. If we scan 24x35mm in 6096 ppi we get an image that is 5760x8640 pixels, that is almost 50 megapixels! Not that a small frame image contains that much, but to get it without strange aliasing effects that can exaggerate grain we need to scan at that insane(?) resolution and having at least 48-bit color. A 6x6 medium format would be 207 Mp scanned at this resolution, that is a file size most computers would have some trouble with.

Now lets take a look at scanning an enlargement, 30x20 cm. What resolution would you need to get a 50 Mp image? 800ppi will be more than enough. Can RA-4 paper hold 800ppi? Yes, barely, but it can, the paper structure will affect it to some grater or lesser degree. So, if you do not have access to a top notch drum scanner capable of 6000 ppi or more, you will probably be much better off making an optical enlargement on a good paper, then scanning the large copy. Yes the enlarger optics will degrade some, the paper will also degrade some but also smooth grain in a very natural way, the net effect will in most cases be better than a 3000 ppi scan, not so much regarding detail, rather having about the same detail but with less and more natural grain.

I learned this the hard way when i was beffled by a less grainy Fuji superia iso-400 scan at 3200 ppi than an iso-100 Fuji Reala shot at the same occasion with the same camera. First i could not figure it out. When i looked at the optical prints with a loupe the 400-image was a lot more grainy, but scanned it was the other way around. This is the Nyquist frequency playing tricks on us, a reality known for a very long time in digital recording of sound, but the exact same principles is at work when scanning images.

Think of it this way, just to wrap your head around it. Imagine 3 "grains" in a row, black, white and black.. Now scan this with 2/3 of the grain resolution. The first pixel will see one black and a half white, averaging this to light gray. The next pixel will see a half white and a whole black, again averaging this to the exact same light gray. Now imagine this to be horizontally, but the same to be true vertically.. congratulation, now you have big blob of light gray instead of 9 pixels in a checkered pattern, shock horror, a huge grain.. at least it looks like that.

Now this was only BW, the same goes on with colors, that is why we need a huge bit-depth as in 6553600 colors per channel. But most scanners can do that, but not many image editing software and certainly not our monitors. That is why serous scanner software needs a special definition for every combination of scanner and make of film there is, especially when talking about negative film that has a lot of exposure latitude, and of course olso the orange mask. But very few scanning software have the ability to be configured with different medium definitions.

When people are comparing scans, they are most of the time just comparing the scanner technology, not the scanned original. When people said that digital passed film at 4 Mp, it was only the consumer scanners that could not get more out of the film, later it became 6 Mp and then 8 and 10. The film was the same, only scanners became better.
 

hrst

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Although there are a few minor technical details I disagree with steelneck or would like to clarify, I think that is well put.

The good thing in a full analog workflow is that we don't need to think these unbelievably difficult and complicated aspects at all; in fact, we don't even need to know about them or understand them, and still their effects won't ever pop up like "oh, why this is so grainy" or "oh, why my reds are blown out" if we resort to analog means. That's the best thing in APUG, dedicated in all-analog workflow.
 

cbphoto

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Very nice thread. I spent the last 5-6 years or so scanning negs and trying to maintain grain-sharp images all the way through to the print or web versions, and it SUCKS! Resizing, sharpening, etc....it is so much easier in the darkroom.
 
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F80p

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WOW! Steelneck that was well explained. Thanks!!! I really need to go and print analog way to discover film....or earn enough to buy a drum scanner :smile:
 

Athiril

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Sometimes you can increase the graininess with poor development. Going from 100 degrees in the developer to 62 degrees in the bleach can cause "reticulation" where the emulsion cracks slightly, which can look like grain.

You cannot judge the graininess of color negative film from a scan. Some scanners reduce grain electronically (also reducing sharpness.) Also, scanning color negative film introduces grain to the image. I cannot tell you why, but when I scan my color negatives I say "oh my that's grainy; I should switch to digital" and when I print the negatives in the darkroom even very large I say "wow that looks nice. Now I remember why I shoot film." For some reason scanners make color negative film look grainy. I've printed 400 speed color negative film at 11x14 with very tolerable pleasant looking grain in the darkroom; the same film is almost intolerable scanned.

Like someone already said - grain in the highlights.

And to the scanner, which has a shitty sensor with a poor signal to noise ratio - lots of shadow noise - image is inverted.. adds to highlight 'graininess'.
 

Athiril

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I have much better luck scanning prints than scanning film, especially when it comes to grain. Here is a comparison image of a 35mm color slide. I scanned the right side of the image with my Epson V500 at 6400dpi. The left side, I made a 4x5 internegative, contact printed it, and scanned the 4x5 print on the same scanner. It's disappointing that I get better results doing this even through 2 enlarger lenses than straight off the scanner.


http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n78/daravon/sharp.jpg

V500 you will get somewhere 1600-2000 dpi of real resolution, I own one too, and I found scanning at 3200 dpi is just as good as 6400 dpi - when at 3200 dpi it uses the 'normal' lens and 6400 dpi supposedly uses the 'extra high super duper resolution lens', I found the effective resolution to be indentical.

Are you really surprised? Sensor and lens tech has improved dramatically over the past decade, scanners have not, they do not use good tech.

They use sensors with shitty SNR's, and not adjustable backlights (should be RGB LEDs individually dimmable via the software interface for hardware colour correction - would cost like $1 a unit to implement), adjustable intensity would also overcome shitty SNR, and "dense" slides that you gotta stretch levels out on and lose some shadow detail to clipping and have the rest swimming in a ridiculous amount of noise.

The lenses they put in them are just total rubbish, 18th century lenses are sharper.

A flatbed could perfectly well resolve over 4000 dpi/ppi of real detail, it just needs a reasonable lens to do so.

Im sure theyre made rubbish on purpose... its ridiculous how bad the optics are..

Been thinking about going to the OP shop and picking up one of the old A4 1200 or 2400 dpi scanners for $10, and seeing if I can remove the lens array and still scan with the scanner light disabled (tried one of my old ones before, but it 'needs' to calibrate against a white strip with light) and possibly remove the glass.

Use it in place of photographic paper in an enlarger setup.. enlarger lens would only need to resolve ~600 effective dpi at the print size for very nice digital enlargements..
 

steelneck

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Use it in place of photographic paper in an enlarger setup.. enlarger lens would only need to resolve ~600 effective dpi at the print size for very nice digital enlargements..

That is something i have thought of too, in a way.. What i was thinking about, but never come around to try, is to place a 20x30 cm ground glass on the scanner bed and project the image with my enlarger. That way, if it works, i would come down to "sane" resolutions that the flatbed can handle, and still be able to stay well above the Nyquist frequency and get very large images megapixel-wise.
 

finstu

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Sorry to revive an old thread but did anyone ever try to dissmantal a scanner and use it in place of paper.
 

keithwms

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Sorry to revive an old thread but did anyone ever try to dissmantal a scanner and use it in place of paper.

Do it!

It has been done to do direct image capture, that idea gave rise to the "scan backs." But if you are suggesting to put a scanner beneath an enlarger, I am not aware of anyone doing that.

The main thing would be to remove the scanner's glass.
 

Athiril

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Hi there! I shoot 35mm and C-41.
I have few questions regarding grain.....and its relationship towards film development.

So my question is.....does under/improper development lead to more graininess?
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3384/3439836052_132c8c44f3_o.jpg
1/1000 sec, F5.6
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3349/3442231628_914f8c37cf_b.jpg
1/125 sec, F4.5
Both the pics are shot at the same focal length and same film brand but processed by different minilabs.
(please see the large size picture)
The bokeh in the first pic is very grainy(see the front tyre, its not even circular)! whereas the second pic bokeh is smooth like digital. I dont get it....WHY?????

If it is uneven development/improper development then a better method like using a brush to move over the film for more even development solve the problem?

Grainy skies are another headache/mystery!

A scan.. since all we can see are digital copies on here can also cause very excessive grain/noise if scanned at low resolution in some circumstances from interference some how. Has happened to me on 35mm Reala, just getting web images in @ 600 dpi scan res for example, rather than scanning higher and pulling it down.

In any case, your image actually looks quite fine to me.
 

Athiril

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Sorry to revive an old thread but did anyone ever try to dissmantal a scanner and use it in place of paper.

I've done it. But it refused to scan without white-calibration.


There are a few things you must do.

1. Remove the pinhole lens array (assume using a cheaper end or 2nd hand scanner).

2. Disable the backlight. Most scanners will not scan when you do this, so you should cut the wires to it, install a switch, after it calibrates, turn it off.

3. Remove the scan-lid, and push the switch down, so it thinks lid is closed.


Also probably best to remove platen glass.. but then exposed line sensor.. etc..
 
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