Grafmatics and Septums

removed account4 · Mar 13, 2021

grat said:
And rendered all of them completely unsaleable in my opinion-- Not necessarily because the wheel was removed, but because people like you can't be bothered to remove it the right way

should have saved them and sold all the wheelless grafmatics to me! I fine the wheels to be a waste of metal shim.

Sirius Glass said:
All my Grafmatics have the wheel and I use the numbers. The wheel takes so little space on the edge that only those of very little minds would remove them. I would not buy Grafmatics without the wheels.

please keep your insults to yourself?
I have to use those grafmatics on jobs documenting stuff for the library of congress and state archives and the last thing I want is to submit 4x5 negatives, azo prints and a technical research paper that include negatives that have sillynumbers exposed on the rebate. maybe they work OK for you and what you do, but to me they display unprofessionalism and they are useless. I mean why does someone need to number their negatives like that anyways? can't take good notes? can't remember what barn or pile of rocks or trees they photographed or bridge or whatever? I've never had a problem knowing what it was I photographed, even when I had 80 negatives to submit ( 240 sheets of film exposed ). its too bad they didn't make grafmatics WITHOUT the number wheel for people who had no use for the numbers.

David A. Goldfarb · Mar 13, 2021

About a Grafmatic for plates—what you’re looking for is a bag mag. I have a 5x7” bag mag for plates with film inserts for my Press Graflex. It’s an unusual mount system with two locator pins, so it doesn’t fit any other kind of 5x7” camera as far as I know. It’s much bulkier and heavier than the later film magazine for the same camera, and I’d imagine it would weigh a ton loaded with glass, but maybe less than a bag full of loaded conventional plate holders. It holds a stack of plates in septums that prevent scratching, and a rod is used to pull the septum after exposure into a lightproof leather bag where you can slide it into the back of the stack by feel. The bag is sealed, so your hand touches the outside of the bag, and the loaded septum is inside. Not as slick as a properly working Grafmatic, but you can get pretty handy with it with practice. I’ve seen converted and home made bag mags for sale that can hold as many as 22 film septums.

Sirius Glass · Mar 13, 2021

jnantz said:
should have saved them and sold all the wheelless grafmatics to me! I fine the wheels to be a waste of metal shim.

please keep your insults to yourself?
I have to use those grafmatics on jobs documenting stuff for the library of congress and state archives and the last thing I want is to submit 4x5 negatives, azo prints and a technical research paper that include negatives that have sillynumbers exposed on the rebate. maybe they work OK for you and what you do, but to me they display unprofessionalism and they are useless. I mean why does someone need to number their negatives like that anyways? can't take good notes? can't remember what barn or pile of rocks or trees they photographed or bridge or whatever? I've never had a problem knowing what it was I photographed, even when I had 80 negatives to submit ( 240 sheets of film exposed ). its too bad they didn't make grafmatics WITHOUT the number wheel for people who had no use for the numbers.

Grafmatics are no longer being made. One should not be destroying them. That is like turning a flashgun battery pack in to a light saber. Find another product.

grat · Mar 13, 2021

jnantz said:
its too bad they didn't make grafmatics WITHOUT the number wheel for people who had no use for the numbers.

They did. But they're 2.25x3.25 "23" series grafmatics.

I don't mind them being removed. But they're held in place with a screw, and properly removed, they can be reinstalled. Ripped out with pliers, they can never be reinstalled again. When I replaced the stereo in my car years ago, I carefully removed the factory unit from the car, and boxed it all up. When I sold the car, I included the box with the factory unit, in case the new owner wanted to restore it to factory condition. These are items that are no longer being made, and I personally think it's incredibly selfish to damage them simply because YOU don't want a feature. Sure, it's your property, and your right-- but you have permanently ruined the value of the product in my opinion, to a point where I have no interest in purchasing it.

removed account4 · Mar 13, 2021

Sirius Glass said:
Grafmatics are no longer being made. One should not be destroying them. That is like turning a flashgun battery pack in to a light saber. Find another product.

it matters very little to me that grafmatics are no longer being made. the wheel is a PITA and in my opinion ruins negatives.
suggesting someone who owns and uses an object shouldn't be permitted to modify that item as they wish is a bit over the top. its like suggesting a car owner should not be permitted to modify their car, a homeowner should not be permitted to upgrade the crappy tube and knob in their home. and regarding those graflites, sure I'd sell one in a New York Minute to a Star Wars enthusiast and get paid 300$ for a 30$ object I have no use for.

grat said:
They did. But they're 2.25x3.25 "23" series grafmatics.

I don't mind them being removed. But they're held in place with a screw, and properly removed, they can be reinstalled. Ripped out with pliers, they can never be reinstalled again. When I replaced the stereo in my car years ago, I carefully removed the factory unit from the car, and boxed it all up. When I sold the car, I included the box with the factory unit, in case the new owner wanted to restore it to factory condition. These are items that are no longer being made, and I personally think it's incredibly selfish to damage them simply because YOU don't want a feature. Sure, it's your property, and your right-- but you have permanently ruined the value of the product in my opinion, to a point where I have no interest in purchasing it.

its called modification, and if I own it and never plan on selling it who cares?
I find they have MORE value because the kind soul who cut off the wheel with tin snips saved me the time and effort to do it myself. I'd pay top dollar for that.
I don't do photography to own collectable unused unmodified gear shelf queens, I use all my gear until it breaks and then I fix it and modify it as needed. when im dead its all going to be thrown in a dumpster anyways so im not sure what the problem is.
on the large format page, there are people there who modify their film holders with notches and convert dry plate holders and film pack adapters for wet plate use.

Donald Qualls · Mar 13, 2021

For whatever it's worth, I'd prefer to have the imprint wheel, but the Grafmatic I have at present doesn't have one (the pivot appears to still be present, however, so at least there may be the option to install a replacement).

I run into this argument relative to guns on one of my other forums -- there, the general idea is that it's probably undesirable to make permanent modifications to a piece with historical value (like an original, full long barrel Mosin Nagant model 1891, which weren't made in huge numbers, and most of which were converted to a newer standard during one of the several wars that rifle served in), but less of a "sin" to convert a rifle that, due to numbers, has less significance (like the 91/30 round receiver model Mosin Nagant, which was literally made in the tens of millions for the defense of the Soviet Union against the Nazi invasion -- with no attention paid to appearance, only "does it fire?"), and no sin at all to do what you like with one already modified by "Bubba" who just wanted a hunting rifle when these WWII surplus guns were selling for $70.

To convert the analogy for those who aren't gun folks, if you won't like the imprint wheel, feel free to take it off, but please, out of respect for people who might receive your "film junk" when you can no longer use it, don't modify sixty to eighty year old equipment that hasn't been made in forty or more years in a way that can't be returned to its original function. Grafmatics aren't multi-strike date and moon phase clocks or focal plane shutters; anyone competent to handle tools and with access to a parts diagram should be able to remove the wheel without damaging anything else. If you've done this the respectful way, and are certain you'll never want to put the wheel back, I'd welcome the opportunity to buy a couple, one to restore that function (which I believe I'll find useful) on my current Grafmatic, and one or two more to have on hand in order to restore future purchases if obtained without the wheel (but otherwise undamaged in that respect).

removed account4 · Mar 13, 2021

if I need to imprint my film I usually use my fingers in front of the lens . no wheel needed

Sirius Glass · Mar 13, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
For whatever it's worth, I'd prefer to have the imprint wheel, but the Grafmatic I have at present doesn't have one (the pivot appears to still be present, however, so at least there may be the option to install a replacement).

I run into this argument relative to guns on one of my other forums -- there, the general idea is that it's probably undesirable to make permanent modifications to a piece with historical value (like an original, full long barrel Mosin Nagant model 1891, which weren't made in huge numbers, and most of which were converted to a newer standard during one of the several wars that rifle served in), but less of a "sin" to convert a rifle that, due to numbers, has less significance (like the 91/30 round receiver model Mosin Nagant, which was literally made in the tens of millions for the defense of the Soviet Union against the Nazi invasion -- with no attention paid to appearance, only "does it fire?"), and no sin at all to do what you like with one already modified by "Bubba" who just wanted a hunting rifle when these WWII surplus guns were selling for $70.

If I take six photographs of the same subject with different exposures, filters et al taking notes for each exposure, the numbers in the tiny sliver of the rebate tell me which exposure is which after developing in a tray or tank.

To convert the analogy for those who aren't gun folks, if you won't like the imprint wheel, feel free to take it off, but please, out of respect for people who might receive your "film junk" when you can no longer use it, don't modify sixty to eighty year old equipment that hasn't been made in forty or more years in a way that can't be returned to its original function. Grafmatics aren't multi-strike date and moon phase clocks or focal plane shutters; anyone competent to handle tools and with access to a parts diagram should be able to remove the wheel without damaging anything else. If you've done this the respectful way, and are certain you'll never want to put the wheel back, I'd welcome the opportunity to buy a couple, one to restore that function (which I believe I'll find useful) on my current Grafmatic, and one or two more to have on hand in order to restore future purchases if obtained without the wheel (but otherwise undamaged in that respect).

I agree. There is still enough equipment out there to pass on a working Grafmatic with the exposure wheel and find a working Grafmatic that has the wheel removed. What others are saying that "I bought it and I can do anything I want" is exactly like if I went to buy a Leica IIIg or M3 that are in superb condition with a vintage collapsible 50mm also in superb condition and then decide that I do not like the lens pancaked flat and I never want to change from that lens, so I get epoxy glue and a hot glue gun and fix the lens so that I can never be removed and never collapsed again so that I can stand up and pound my chest as I announce, "I paid for it, so I can do whatever I want." Talk about basic gross arrogance! For many of us our equipment will still be working long after we are gone.

grat · Mar 13, 2021

jnantz said:
if I need to imprint my film I usually use my fingers in front of the lens . no wheel needed

.... so instead of being inconvenienced by a tiny number taking up a 3mm wide sliver of the negative, you stick your finger in front of the lens.

ookay.

removed account4 · Mar 14, 2021

Sirius Glass said:
"I paid for it, so I can do whatever I want."

whatever, since when does removing a goofy wheel equal to putting epoxy on a leitz lens? your comparison makes no sense. but I'll bite..
the wheel serves no real purpose other than to put an obtrusive number on the film that can not be removed without use of an emulsion knife. epoxy on a lens ruins the lens.
your complaints are similar to those I got when I was using precious azo paper to make cameraless photographs. or when I process velvia in black and white developer, or use caffenol or don't fridge store my film. someone should be able to do what they please with things they own without the photography police coming after them.
go to the LF page or collodion bastards or collodion.com and complain there about how it is morally wrong to modify precious dry plate holders and film pack adapters for wet plate use... and and please complain to people who are using naphtha and putting the wrong lubricant in the lenses and shutters they CLA wrong, and not using company sanctioned equipment to work on/repair/disassemble things.
the nerve of these people ...

grat said:
.... so instead of being inconvenienced by a tiny number taking up a 3mm wide sliver of the negative, you stick your finger in front of the lens.
ookay.

it was a joke ..
I don't number my negatives in camera, it serves no use except to molest my negatives with intrusive letters, notches numbers &c.
I'd rather get 120 roll numbers transferred on my flawed fuji and Kodak roll film paper and incorporate them in my images than have nuisance numbers on the edge of my sheet film.

Donald Qualls · Mar 14, 2021

jnantz said:
someone should be able to do what they please with things they own without the photography police coming after them.

No one has dialed CAMEROSITY (as far as I know) in this conversation. All I was saying is, if you do choose to disable features of your equipment, please have the respect for future users to do so in a repairable manner.

As far as modifying film or plate holders for wet plate, common double dark slide film holders are so, well, common that there's little danger of erasing a piece of photographic history by cutting a hole and installing some lengths of silver wire to mount a wet plate. If you have one with Ansel's handwriting on the note strip, it's probably fake anyway, since he kept all his notes in a notebook, referenced by simple numbers on the film holders (at least after he switched from dry plates to sheet film, some time before 1940). Standard 4x5 film holders were made in the tens of millions, and at least one brand is still available new. Neither is true of Grafmatics. They're closer, in terms of use, to roll film holders than to double dark slides (or 1920s and earlier dry plate holders) -- and like roll film holders, many users like to have some reference on the actual film matching the image and the film with notes they took (since there are six sheets in a loaded Grafmatic, and no simple way to tell them apart if the imprint wheel is removed).

I don't care in the least what color you choose for a replacement covering for a camera -- faux reptile in bright blue, original-looking pebble grain reproduction Vulcanite, or yes, even gold sequin texture cardboard (though I won't be ordering that for my cameras). Nothing says you can't disable the data imprinter in the film door of your 1990s 35mm P&S. All I'm asking is that if you disable features of durable, long out of production equipment, that you do it such a way it can be undone later.

removed account4 · Mar 15, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
there's little danger of erasing a piece of photographic history

Donald Qualls said:
long out of production equipment

they are not rare.

Donald Qualls said:
For whatever it's worth, I'd prefer to have the imprint wheel, but the Grafmatic I have at present doesn't have one (the pivot appears to still be present, however, so at least there may be the option to install a replacement).

I am sure if you NEED one you can find one or make one yourself, its not rocket science.
=
so I guess the good folks who have been modifying polaroid cameras ( razzledog, LITTMAN, alpenhaus ) are doing a disservice to the historical record,
and folks who have modified KODAK 1A+3A long wide roll cameras and Medalists and strut cameras to take modern conventional film are are selfish as well..

the point of having cameras is to use them and if that means modify, deconstruct and do with them as the owner sees fit that's the point.

grat · Mar 15, 2021

About the only valid point you raised is with regard to the Kodak Medalists-- I've seen some ungodly hack jobs where someone with very little skill took a power-tool to the inside of a Medalist, and I have about as much interest in buying gear from them, as I do from someone who's too lazy to remove the negative wheel the right way.

To be blunt, if that's your attitude towards a Grafmatic, why should I believe you treat any of your other gear with care?

You certainly have a right to mangle, mutilate and abuse any piece of photographic hardware you own. But don't expect anything other than disdain in response.

Bill Burk · Mar 15, 2021

jnantz said:
should have saved them and sold all the wheelless grafmatics to me! I fine the wheels to be a waste of metal shim.
can't take good notes? can't remember what barn or pile of rocks or trees they photographed or bridge or whatever?

That's me. I generally hate the numbers. But when my notes say I took a picture of a waterfall and I don't find the waterfall in my negatives, it helps me to stop looking. I think the story was I left the f/90 cap on the lens.

removed account4 · Mar 16, 2021

My

grat said:
About the only valid point you raised is with regard to the Kodak Medalists-- I've seen some ungodly hack jobs where someone with very little skill took a power-tool to the inside of a Medalist, and I have about as much interest in buying gear from them, as I do from someone who's too lazy to remove the negative wheel the right way.

To be blunt, if that's your attitude towards a Grafmatic, why should I believe you treat any of your other gear with care?

You certainly have a right to mangle, mutilate and abuse any piece of photographic hardware you own. But don't expect anything other than disdain in response.

I don't think removing a wheel is mangling...

Donald Qualls · Mar 16, 2021

jnantz said:
I don't think removing a wheel is mangling...

Depends how you go about doing it. Taking the factory rear sight off a Mosin Nagant isn't mangling the rifle -- unless you use an angle grinder to do it.

Taking out the screw and storing the wheel where it can be passed on with the Grafmatic when you no longer need it is the right way. Ripping it out with wire cutters is mangling. IMO.

removed account4 · Mar 17, 2021

amazing how discouraging this website can be to people just wanting to enjoy themselves...
they are held in distain and called arrogant and selfish, and told they don't care for their gear
because they modifying their own gear, that they will never sell, that arrived to them un-working. ...
"the wrong way".

too much

Donald Qualls · Mar 17, 2021

With twenty-eight thousand posts, I'd have thought you already knew that.

removed account4 · Mar 17, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
With twenty-eight thousand posts, I'd have thought you already knew that.

yes Donald it is a shame isn't it ?
one would think that after nearly 15+ years of being here and having to deal with closed minded
harsh people who are all about themselves, their gear, spreading misinformation and, insulting others
I would have learned my lesson ... maybe this is it ?

best of luck with your grafmatic back

grat · Mar 17, 2021

Bit of a false equivalence there. I started this particular diversion, because someone expressed an attitude towards his gear that I didn't agree with. And it wasn't you.

My initial comment, while snarky, was simply an observation that this is a practice I don't agree with, and why I felt it was a bad idea. You decided this was a personal attack on your liberties, and having done your best to stoke the fire as much as possible, now you're complaining it's too hot.

Maybe we should just let it drop, eh?

Bill Burk · Mar 26, 2021

grat said:
I started this particular diversion, because someone expressed an attitude towards his gear that I didn't agree with.

I thought you meant the diversion where all your spare time goes to Photrio

Donald Qualls · Mar 27, 2021

Got the septums tuned up in my second Grafmatic today (fortunately, these aren't difficult to straighten if they're in good enough condition for the Grafmatic to close for the eBay photos), and loaded the two for an afternoon outing with my Annie Speed. Is it just me, or are Grafmatic septums really that much easier to load than a regular 4x5 film holder?

This second one has the index wheel, which moves correctly with the outside counter wheel, but it's a couple frames out of sync -- reads 3 when the counter is at 1, and the index isn't well centered; the little wheel is also a little bent. Looks like I'll have to look up the thread and check the repair manual, take this one apart and straighten and resync the indexer. For the moment, I'll just life with mis-indexed negatives (the first one I got doesn't even have the wheel).

Donald Qualls · Mar 28, 2021

Now that I've loaded, shot, and unloaded my two Grafmatics, I will make another statement about them: these things are FAR easier to load and especially to unload than a Lisco or Riteway (or other brand, wood or plastic) 4x5 double dark slide film holder. I can load two sets of six septums, including squaring up the finished stack and getting them into the Grafmatic, in about the time it takes me to load three double dark slides, and I'm far less likely to misload (in fact, I don't see how I could misload these and be able to get them into the Grafmatic) -- and I can unload them just about as quickly. Combine this with the ease of loading my Yankee Agitank, and I can handle a dozen sheets with less effort than four in regular film holders.

That could be bad news -- I'll probably increase my consumption of 4x5 film as I accumulate Grafmatics -- but I'm going to take it as good news. Less wasted film due to misloads, more enjoyable photography, more use of large format.

juan · Mar 28, 2021

I’ll just pass on that old Grafmatic sometimes hang up if you try to rack the film with the lens pointed down. I have never had that problem when operating the Grafmatic with the camera held in the shooting position.

Sirius Glass · Mar 28, 2021

Grafmatics work much better when the septums are inserted in the right direction. You do not have to ask met how I know.

Grafmatics and Septums

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