Going Back in Time

[ColColt]

I made the decision the other day to start developing B&W again after years of moth balling my enlarger and associated equipment. I'm still not going to do the printing anytime soon but just develop negatives. I found my old Paterson developing tank and reels, thermometer, and collapsible containers for developer, etc. Everything you need to get going again and I ordered all the chemicals I need from FreeStyle. However, I found I still had containers and bottle of Photoflo, half a package of Hypo Clearing agent, chemicals I once used to make developers for paper such as Benzotriazole, Sodium Carbonate, Potassium Permanganate, Selenium Toner,etc. I doubt they're still good as when I stopped darkroom production it was about 1998.

I wanted to see if my thermometer still worked and it did but I found the tap water here is right at 78 degrees-too warm for washing film or anything else. I may have to wait months before I can get back into this due to the warm water. I could cool the developer, stop, fixer, etc real easy but not the rinse water. Anyone have this trouble where you live? Winter time is a piece of cake but not summer months. I don't remember what I did before as I know I developed in the summer and in fact year round.

It will be good to do this again as I've had a longing for some time to shoot Tri-X once again but didn't want to send it out since I had developed it myself from 1977 to 1998.

 

[Bruce Osgood]

I'll give you a couple of months developing your own film before that enlarger gets set up and those trays find a place on a counter.
Welcome back

 

[ColColt]

That's one bet I won't take. I'm fighting the urge as it is.

 

[480sparky]

Can you put a few pitchers of water in the fridge and cool 'em down enough to fill a sink basin with both tap-temp water and the chilled water to get it to the right temp? After you begin washing, I don't see why you can't slowly increase the temperature.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Enjoy

 

[ColColt]

I had thought of getting several gallon containers of distilled water, putting them in the fridge and check them periodically to see what the temperature was and go from there...might work.

 

[MattKing]

Developing at 78F works fine - just be sure to use a developer that would normally require fairly long times even at lower temperatures.

T-Max or T-Max RS are both optimized for 74F, and work well at higher temperatures.

The development dial in the Kodak Darkroom Dataguide goes up to 80F.

I do all my film development at room temperature. All of the chemicals are stored and used that way. I either adjust my tap water to match, or fill a largish container of water and let it come to room temperature before using it for washing.

My most recent roll of T-Max 400 was developed in my replenished HC110 dil E at 79 F for the adjusted time indicated by the Dataguide and the negatives are fully satisfactory.

I used 79F, because that happened to be the room temperature of all the solutions that day. Warmer than normal for our area, but not otherwise remarkable.

You may benefit from scheduling your development sessions for first thing in the day, but that would be as much about comfort as anything else.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

If by collapsible containers you mean the accordion type bottles then ditch them. The plastic they are made of is very permeable to oxygen making them unsuitable for developers. Their design also makes them very difficult to thoroughly clean. If you mean by containers something like cubitainers they are also unsuitable for developers but can be used for other solutions.

 

[Xmas]

We have the other problem here for 10 months in 12 water is at 10c or less. I need to use an electric kettle you will need ice cubes in plastic jug of faucet.

You can process hot but the fog levels can change...

Ilford have a wash procedure which only requires three changes of water for archival permerance.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washing_(photography)

I use 10, 20, and 30 after HCA all at 20C

Your HCA may have changed from sulphite to sulphate in 15 years, I'd get new, I've used Rodinal after 25 years...

What I've done is get a micro scale with 0.01 resolution for ID-68 scratch mixing about 50USD equivalent.

 

[Hilo]

I would do everything, from development to washing, at 78 degrees. Do some test development first, compensating for the higher temperature. You could calculate the percentage resulting from the higher temperature and bring back the development time by that. I would just guess and try. An 8 minute development I would bring to 7 minutes to understand what happens.

You could consider diluting a one shot developer (like Rodinal), doing 1:50 instead of 1:25. That gives you a longer developing time and therefore more room to play.

Stopbath and washing at 78 degrees is absolutely no problem.

The only thing I would be more careful about is the handling of the wet film when taking it off the reel. It will be more vulnerable.

 

[John Bragg]

Hi. Why not use a simple to mix bomb proof developer like HC-110 at a reasonably high dilution and adjust time according to the temperature on the day ? HC-110 unofficial dilution H should do it. That is 1:63 instead of the "normal" 1:31. Or you could try semi stand development ?
http://www.digitaltruth.com/products/kodak_tech/j24.pdf

 

[Roger Cole]

Didn't read all the replies but my tap water in summer is often near 78. Wash away. This will NOT hurt modern film. Even Foma has been no problem.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk and 100% recycled electrons - because I care.

 

[bdial]

For washing, for film you can use the fill and dump method, the so called "Ilford archival wash" method is popular, I use Kodak's recommendation which is 5 changes of water in 20 minutes with agitation. I fill a large jug with tempered water.

This was my routine for a long time, as I have the opposite problem, my cold water is too cold and my tankless water heater doesn't come on for the small hot water demand for mixing at the tap. I've subsequently fixed that problem with a point-of-use water heater. You could do the same with a chiller, but they are pretty expensive.

For RC paper you can also using a fill and dump method, or just use the water from the tap, paper is not so sensitive to water temp as long as it's not hot enough to start melting the gelatin.

 

[paul_c5x4]

If by collapsible containers you mean the accordion type bottles then ditch them. Their design also makes them very difficult to thoroughly clean.

I second this - I started out with some of these bottles and when I got black flecks all over my negs one day, they went in the bin. Best thing I ever did. I now use brown glass bottles purchased from a local pharmacy for just about all liquid storage.

As for water temperatures over 72F - During the summer weeks, my "cold" water gets up to around 78F (25°C) some days. Not usually a problem with the films I use (mostly Ilford).

 

[removed account4]

I made the decision the other day to start developing B&W again after years of moth balling my enlarger and associated equipment. I'm still not going to do the printing anytime soon but just develop negatives. I found my old Paterson developing tank and reels, thermometer, and collapsible containers for developer, etc. Everything you need to get going again and I ordered all the chemicals I need from FreeStyle. However, I found I still had containers and bottle of Photoflo, half a package of Hypo Clearing agent, chemicals I once used to make developers for paper such as Benzotriazole, Sodium Carbonate, Potassium Permanganate, Selenium Toner,etc. I doubt they're still good as when I stopped darkroom production it was about 1998.

I wanted to see if my thermometer still worked and it did but I found the tap water here is right at 78 degrees-too warm for washing film or anything else. I may have to wait months before I can get back into this due to the warm water. I could cool the developer, stop, fixer, etc real easy but not the rinse water. Anyone have this trouble where you live? Winter time is a piece of cake but not summer months. I don't remember what I did before as I know I developed in the summer and in fact year round.

It will be good to do this again as I've had a longing for some time to shoot Tri-X once again but didn't want to send it out since I had developed it myself from 1977 to 1998.

i wouldn't worry about your water temperature ..
have fun !
john

 

[ColColt]

If by collapsible containers you mean the accordion type bottles then ditch them. The plastic they are made of is very permeable to oxygen making them unsuitable for developers.

Admittedly they can be hard to clean but I always cleaned them well when the last bit of developer(or fixer) was gone from the container. I used them from day one and never had a problem storing the chemicals in them. I tried other containers, even old brown glass medicine bottles you can't get anymore and when the solution began to go down I would add marbles to bring the solution back up as to attempt to avoid oxidation. When my Rodinal would get low I'd transfer it to the brown bottles and add the marbles. It may not have been necessary for that developer but it gave me peace of mind at any rate.

the times I established with HC-110 many moons ago was 5 1/2 minutes with Dilution B with Tri-X and it worked great. That was at 68-70 degrees. I never tried any of the other dilutions since that one seemed to work well. When conditions were harsh, as a sunny day, sun at a 45 degree angle, I'd rate the film at 200 and switch to ID-11 Plus as under developing HC-110 would have been unstable at less than 5 minutes. With ID-11 Plus I could under develop at 6-7 minutes and hold the shadows without blowing the high lights.

 

[Roger Cole]

Ilford publishes a table for converting times from one temperature to another equivalent time. In my experience it generally works well. I standardized my temp to 75F because my Jobo CPE2 has a heater but not cold water inlet (and no running water in my darkroom and water that's too warm in summer anyway) but even in summer my ambient solutions are rarely over 75 and other times the heater gets them there. Works fine.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk and 100% recycled electrons - because I care.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I second this - I started out with some of these bottles and when I got black flecks all over my negs one day, they went in the bin. Best thing I ever did. I now use brown glass bottles purchased from a local pharmacy for just about all liquid storage.

As for water temperatures over 72F - During the summer weeks, my "cold" water gets up to around 78F (25°C) some days. Not usually a problem with the films I use (mostly Ilford).

I just find that it is hard to squeeze the air out of a brown glass bottle.

 

[MattKing]

Admittedly they can be hard to clean but I always cleaned them well when the last bit of developer(or fixer) was gone from the container. I used them from day one and never had a problem storing the chemicals in them. I tried other containers, even old brown glass medicine bottles you can't get anymore and when the solution began to go down I would add marbles to bring the solution back up as to attempt to avoid oxidation. When my Rodinal would get low I'd transfer it to the brown bottles and add the marbles. It may not have been necessary for that developer but it gave me peace of mind at any rate.

the times I established with HC-110 many moons ago was 5 1/2 minutes with Dilution B with Tri-X and it worked great. That was at 68-70 degrees. I never tried any of the other dilutions since that one seemed to work well. When conditions were harsh, as a sunny day, sun at a 45 degree angle, I'd rate the film at 200 and switch to ID-11 Plus as under developing HC-110 would have been unstable at less than 5 minutes. With ID-11 Plus I could under develop at 6-7 minutes and hold the shadows without blowing the high lights.

The films have changed considerably since then, so you are going to have to re-calibrate your results anyways, so you may as well do so with more dilute developer.

Just remember to have enough of the original HC110 syrup in your tank for each roll. If you rely on Kodak's numbers, that means 6 ml.

FWIW, my 79F development was for 5.5 minutes - the 68F time would have been 9.0 minutes (TMY-2, HC110 dil E, replenished)

 

[ColColt]

One aspect of developing negatives I can't seem to recall is how much solution I used in the small tank. I don't remember if I just used one reel with the spindle or whether I used both reels with the bottom one having the film on it and whether I used enough solution to cover the top reel or just enough for the bottom reel. Would it make any difference? 300 ml will cover one reel but is that enough?

 

[MattKing]

One aspect of developing negatives I can't seem to recall is how much solution I used in the small tank. I don't remember if I just used one reel with the spindle or whether I used both reels with the bottom one having the film on it and whether I used enough solution to cover the top reel or just enough for the bottom reel. Would it make any difference? 300 ml will cover one reel but is that enough?

At the very least, you need to cover the bottom reel.

If you are interested in maximizing consistency, you will get the greatest consistency with respect to agitation if you use the same volume of fluid in the tank each time.

So if you will sometimes use the tank for two reels, it is marginally better to always put the second reel in and fill the tank to the two reel level.

The difference will, however, be slight. And if you are using developer one shot, that can be uneconomic (depending on dilution).

You should always make sure that the bottom reel stays at the bottom of the tank, so whether or not you use the greater amount of fluid, you should use either a clip or a full or empty reel to keep that bottom reel in place.

 

[ColColt]

300 ml will cover the bottom reel. I put one reel in with the spindle, poured in 300 ml of water to see where the level came and it does cover the bottom reel. If I remember right, I used the empty reel on top whether film was on it or not. I've got the little clip on thing that fits over the spindle and against the bottom reel but don't recall using it. I just wasn't sure about how much developer I put in the container in the past.

 

[Jim Jones]

I agree with Matt King in post #6. I keep reels, tanks, chemicals, and plenty of water at room temperature, and adjust development time for room temperatures up to 85 degrees. A prewash helps when developing time becomes that short. Perhaps film is more delicate, but 85 degrees works for both tray and tank development for me.

 

[Paul Howell]

I agree that you can process at 78 with out any issues. Here in Phoenix out tap water is over 90 degrees in the summer. At one time I used Dinafine at room temp and washed with tap water, but at 90 the emulsion melted off, at the I was using TriX and Plus X. I built a chiller by winding a coil of copper tubing into a 5 gallon paint bucket, a hose from the shower head, I unscrew the head and use a standard hose bib adaptor, to the top of the coil, another hose from the bottom of the coil to a film washer, I have a commercial washer for roll film and a homemade washer from an old 5X4 developing tank for sheet film. The coil is sealed at the top and bottom with RV silicon sealant. A 1/2 7 pound bag of ice will wash a load of film. The tap water drops from over 90 to 64 degrees. I have a big tub to chill my chemistry to 68 degrees. In the winter when my tap water drops to the 70s I process at room temps.

 

[ColColt]

I can't recall for certain but it seems back when I was doing film in the summer I'd buy so many gallons of distilled water and just let them sit in the darkroom till time for wash. Downstairs in this split foyer, being partially underground, it stays a constant 68-70 degrees with the de-humidifier running in the summer so, washing at the proper temp was no big deal. I just can't recall how many gallons it took for a proper washing...maybe 4-5, can't remember.