Going Back in Time

[MattKing]

I can't recall for certain but it seems back when I was doing film in the summer I'd buy so many gallons of distilled water and just let them sit in the darkroom till time for wash. Downstairs in this split foyer, being partially underground, it stays a constant 68-70 degrees with the de-humidifier running in the summer so, washing at the proper temp was no big deal. I just can't recall how many gallons it took for a proper washing...maybe 4-5, can't remember.

That is way too much wash water.

Use a washaid like Hypo Clearing Agent, and either the Ilford washing sequence, or a running water wash according to Kodak's recommendation - 5 minutes at a flow rate sufficient to fully change the water in your tank completely at least once in that 5 minutes.

A flow of 2 quarts within that 5 minutes should be enough.

Can you do the whole process at room temperature there, and therefore avoid the temperature problems?

 

[ColColt]

The room temp isn't the problem, it's the tap water here in the summer. I may not have used that much water before as that was long ago and I can't recall. I do think I may have used two gallons when the tap water got over 75 degrees. I didn't want to process the film with all the chemicals at 68-70 degrees and then wash at 78.

 

[Xmas]

The room temp isn't the problem, it's the tap water here in the summer. I may not have used that much water before as that was long ago and I can't recall. I do think I may have used two gallons when the tap water got over 75 degrees. I didn't want to process the film with all the chemicals at 68-70 degrees and then wash at 78.

If your tank is x mls

Develop
Stop x
Fix
Rinse x
HCA
Ilford 3x

So 5x?

Cause I'm very cautious all these at 20C. Use ice cubes drink the whisky warm.

 

[mklw1954]

You can develop and wash at the proper b&w temperature (68F/20C) if you cool your tank/reels/film to 68F in an insulated cooler (better if you're using stainless and not plastic); cool the chemicals to 68F; and use the Ilford method for washing, bringing the required batch volume of water to 68F +/-. You can do all this with ice cubes and your warm water. You'd probably need to be prepared with 2-3 trays of ice cubes in total.

I do that in the summer, but the tap water isn't as warm as yours; lowest temp is around 66F here in the middle of the summer which is not low enough to reduce the tank/reels/film and chemical temps to 68F.

 

[Roger Cole]

There is no such thing as "the proper B&W temperature." 68F was chosen decades ago because in all but the coldest darkrooms you should have no problem reaching that temperature. I haven't developed at 68F in at least 20 years. It's true that, ideally, the wash and solution temperatures should be close though modern films are not nearly as susceptible to problems from that as they used to be. With wash water at 78 I would just standardize my development at 75 or so (as I have for other reasons), wash at 78 and get on with it. With development times dialed in for the temperature this will cause no problems at all.


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[MattKing]

There is no such thing as "the proper B&W temperature." 68F was chosen decades ago because in all but the coldest darkrooms you should have no problem reaching that temperature. I haven't developed at 68F in at least 20 years. It's true that, ideally, the wash and solution temperatures should be close though modern films are not nearly as susceptible to problems from that as they used to be. With wash water at 78 I would just standardize my development at 75 or so (as I have for other reasons), wash at 78 and get on with it. With development times dialed in for the temperature this will cause no problems at all.


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+1

Although I don't know why 68F was originally chosen, I expect it had something to do with Rochester, New York.

 

[Jim Noel]

78 degrees is not too warm. Just make adjustments in times for each step of the process.For example a developing time of 10 minutes at 68 degrees, becomes 6min 15 sec at 77 deg.
As long as all chemicals are within 2 degrees of each other, there will be no problem. When I began processing film and paper in Nashville in the late 30's, the directions indicated any temperature up to 85 degrees was safe. Since then films have begun to be pre-hardened, and the dreaded reticulation is very difficult to achieve.
Don't wait, get started while you are in the mood.
The only chemical you list which I would suspect is Photo-Flo and I would get rid of that. Some that you mention I have had in my chemical closet since at least 1980, and they are still good. By the way, don't replace the Photo-Flo. replace it with LFN a far better and more reliable product.
Get going, and have fun!!

 

[ColColt]

The problem with cutting back on developing time due to higher temperatures is I like HC-110, which is already a short 5 1/2 minute developing time I established long ago. Kodak warns of using a time anything less than 5 minutes with this developer as undesirable effects could occur. Maybe ID-11 would be a better summer time developer.

There have been some good suggestions as how to combat my fear of processing/washing at too high a temperature. I think for the first time developing since long ago I'm going to try using a couple gallons of room temp distilled water for washing. The other chemicals I can mix and let stand in the graduates till they get to the proper temperature. Where I'll be doing the developing usually is never over 70-72 so, they could just sit out awhile until ready.

I don't quite follow why Photoflo is suspect. I've used it since 1977 with no problems.

 

[Xmas]

Faucet water is something you could drink... Distilled no.
Let a plastic container cool or use ice in it.
Photo flow is good.
I use a film squeegee as well cause my faucet is really hard.

 

[MattKing]

The problem with cutting back on developing time due to higher temperatures is I like HC-110, which is already a short 5 1/2 minute developing time I established long ago. Kodak warns of using a time anything less than 5 minutes with this developer as undesirable effects could occur. Maybe ID-11 would be a better summer time developer.

There have been some good suggestions as how to combat my fear of processing/washing at too high a temperature. I think for the first time developing since long ago I'm going to try using a couple gallons of room temp distilled water for washing. The other chemicals I can mix and let stand in the graduates till they get to the proper temperature. Where I'll be doing the developing usually is never over 70-72 so, they could just sit out awhile until ready.

I don't quite follow why Photoflo is suspect. I've used it since 1977 with no problems.

In reverse order:

WRT Photo-flo, I think the warning was about really old Photo-Flo, not Photo-Flo in general.

And why are you not using tap water for washing, if you are planning on letting it come to room temperature anyways? I would only use distilled water for washing if my tap water was problematic.

And finally, if you need longer times for HC-110, dilution E is a great choice. It is effectively the same as Jason Brunner's 1+49 dilution - just search here on APUG for "HC-110 made easy".

 

[ColColt]

The tap water is too warm as I mentioned, more warm than I've used before and a tad hard. I haven't tried the ice method before. Maybe it would be good to give it a try.

 

[Sirius Glass]

There is no need to use distilled water unless you have a problem with the tap water.

Chill chemicals and water in the refrigerator if the ambient temperature is too high. During very hot weather I have done that. Just clearly mark the bottles.

 

[ColColt]

I remember starting with Kodak's recommended time of 7 1/2 minutes for Dilution B with Tri-X but found it too contrasty and that's why I went with 5 1/2 minutes. With todays film, who knows as they've changed it several times over the years since I last used it, or so I've been told.

 

[Roger Cole]

The tap water is too warm as I mentioned, more warm than I've used before and a tad hard. I haven't tried the ice method before. Maybe it would be good to give it a try.

I would (and do) use distilled water for mixing developers and final rinse (mixed with Photo Flo or LFN of whatever rinse you prefer) but hard water usually does a faster, more efficient wash than softer water. Wash aids were invented when Navy shipboard photographers washed in salt water and only used the previous fresh for a final rinse and noticed the salt water gave a much faster, better wash.

At 78 your tap water is nowhere near "too warm." Mine is that in summer and occasionally warmer (as much as 81F.) You are worrying about a problem that doesn't exist.


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[ColColt]

I suppose you're right. I always liked keeping everything +-2 degrees but didn't want to start with the developer at anything over 70-72 at best.

 

[MattKing]

I suppose you're right. I always liked keeping everything +-2 degrees but didn't want to start with the developer at anything over 70-72 at best.

Put a few quarts of your tap water into a container and let it come to room temperature.

Let your other chemicals come to room temperature.

Adjust your development time to match the room temperature.

 

[Xmas]

Wash aids were invented when Navy shipboard photographers washed in salt water and only used the previous fresh for a final rinse and noticed the salt water gave a much faster, better wash.

Well I thought that the wash process was known about in 19th century but not fashionable.

And the larger vessels has desalination the small ones only limited fresh tankage.

When the Canadian and UK navies archived their negatives post Atlantic convoy war they were surprised that the smaller vessels negatives were much better than the larger vessels.

So you won't necessarily detect inadequate washing until you need to do prints for retrospectives when it is way too late.

 

[Roger Cole]

I suppose you're right. I always liked keeping everything +-2 degrees but didn't want to start with the developer at anything over 70-72 at best.

You may well want to change developers or dilution (warning, changing dilutions changes traits that can't be exactly duplicated by changes in time) to get a longer development time at a warmer temperature but as I said I standardized on 75F in the mid 90s when I got a Jobo. Occasionally in summer my ambient solutions are warmer, maybe 76-78, and I just adjust the time a little using the Ilford chart. Works fine for such small changes. And you definitely won't hurt any modern film by developing at 75F and washing at 78F or even 80F. I've done it many times. Even Foma film isn't harmed in the slightest (but Foma is delicate stuff at any temperature while wet so handle that carefully.)

 

[ColColt]

My new to me Leica M2 came today and so did the Zeiss 50 f2 Planar lens I ordered. I loaded some Tri-X up for tomorrow as it got too late to shoot. Saturday my chemicals from Freestyle is suppose to get here so, I need to get to shooting so I can develop the negatives when the goodies come Saturday. Anxious to see how the camera/lens performs as well as doing my first roll of film in about 18 years.

 

[Sirius Glass]

You may well want to change developers or dilution (warning, changing dilutions changes traits that can't be exactly duplicated by changes in time) to get a longer development time at a warmer temperature but as I said I standardized on 75F in the mid 90s when I got a Jobo. Occasionally in summer my ambient solutions are warmer, maybe 76-78, and I just adjust the time a little using the Ilford chart. Works fine for such small changes. And you definitely won't hurt any modern film by developing at 75F and washing at 78F or even 80F. I've done it many times. Even Foma film isn't harmed in the slightest (but Foma is delicate stuff at any temperature while wet so handle that carefully.)

Or you could mix ice water with tape water to get the lower temperature bath that you want. I have done that some times.

 

[Europan]

Don’t see a problem with tap water of 78 degrees Fahrenheit.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Don’t see a problem with tap water of 78 degrees Fahrenheit.

Some developers process film in less than four minutes at 78 degrees, hence the questions about lowering the water and chemical temperatures.

 

[M Carter]

I'm in Texas, hot hot summers and some pretty cold winters. I do want to process my film uniformly.

I just throw a gallon of distilled water in the fridge, and also a big pitcher of filtered water.

I get my dev to temp and a half gallon or so of distilled to 20c as well. Prewash at 20c, and tweak dev temp, check stop temp while developing (just pour cold & room temp into a beaker with a thermometer), and check the fix temp while stopping. I slowly let temps ride up after developing. A bowl of ice helps dial things in.

By the time of final wash the film is warmer, and I just wash with running tap water. Final photoflo with distilled. Zero, zip, nada, no problems with temp-related issues. I've got to where it's all second nature. There's the occasional weekend where the temps are pretty spot-on from the tap, but developer always needs a little tweak.

 

[480sparky]

Another thought:

Wait until winter to develop.