God given gift or just practice?

[Bill Burk]

OK some should be plumbers. Nothing wrong with that. I am not a financier. What do you feel of YOUR capacity for photographic talent?

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

OK I'll accept that some are hindered.

I've read a story where a hopeful photographer was encouraged by one of his teachers (a familiar name), to become a plumber.

If you can accept that some are hindered then why not accept that some are gifted? The rest of us are stuck somewhere in the middle.

 

[frank]

OK some should be plumbers. Nothing wrong with that. I am not a financier. What do you feel of YOUR capacity for photographic talent?

Bullish.

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

Let me put it this way... Do YOU feel like you'll never be able to make it because of some limitation within yourself?

When I was young and in good health... absolutely not.

Now... absolutely.

 

[removed account4]

With regards to child prodigy, you often hear about these, but they soon burn out and don't develop into adult prodigy.

not sure how true this is clive ..
while i think this thread is interesting, it is very easy to generalize on both sides of the street
it is easy to say as long as you practice at anything you will be come proficient at it, and easy to say that
if you have talent / born with, you will be better than you would have been without it and just practicing ...

 

[Bill Burk]

When I was young and in good health... absolutely not.

Now... absolutely.

Well OK. I concede.

At least you didn't lose your mind.

 

[BrianShaw]

Did your spelling correction change that word on you.

Ha ha ha. Just kidding, of course, but that was my first thought. Ha ha ha.

Bullish.

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

Well OK. I concede.

At least you didn't lose your mind.

Oh, but I am losing cognition and memory... and that's the bigger issue. It happens to all of us to some degree or another.

 

[frank]

Did your spelling correction change that word on you.

Ha ha ha. Just kidding, of course, but that was my first thought. Ha ha ha.

No worries Brian, I appreciate humour!
I usually choose words carefully and anticipated the fun with this particular word.

 

[Bill Burk]

Oh, but I am losing cognition and memory... and that's the bigger issue. It happens to all of us to some degree or another.

That's what good friends are for... to remind you what you used to do all the time.

 

[scheimfluger_77]

This is an old, old argument about nature vs. nurture. We talked about it when I was in grad school as it's a conundrum in educational circles when designing instruction. There is no hard evidence either way and no way to really test for it. In truth I think it's both and given that humans are so uniquely much more than their parts--whatever our beliefs it is really a pointless argument. Talent, hard work and genius in random individuals is what it is.

Personally I believe that when God created us he put His creative spark in all us, and it manifests in uncounted ways. It is what it is.

 

[frank]

It is what it is! Ahmen.

 

[MattKing]

If you want to be rich, hope for being a gifted plumber.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

OP was referring to the technical ability required to render the vision, such as in drawing, painting, sculpting etc. The whole "seeing" vs "looking" business is something else, and is (or should be) totally obvious.

Within the narrow scope of the OP's original premise, it is, which still detracts not one iota from the broader insight in the referred to post. I have never been one to turn away from and ignore an excellent insight just because it didn't toe the line...



Ken

 

[Vilk]

I have heard people quote 'I wish I could draw but I can't and that's why I do photography'. In my opinion the ability to draw, or paint, or sculpt is not a God given gift at birth, but one that can be acquired with practice, like many other techniques, such as bricklaying, plastering, photography, etc. What do other think?

yes. and then there is the god-given gift

 

[pdeeh]

Who or what is this "god" business people keep referring to ?

 

[frank]

Who or what is this "god" business people keep referring to ?

Sounds like a topic for another thread.

 

[frank]

No good can come of it.

 

[pdeeh]

Did Amidol evolve, or was it the result of ID?

Does Amidol even exist?

 

[Truzi]

Not to invoke the Flying Spaghetti Monster or anything...

In high school I always wanted to play guitar, but thought talent was one of those things you were born with. Right after high school I finally decided it was something that can be learned. Not that I'm great at it, but if I had the time to devote, I certainly would be.

Technical skills can be learned. I think the "creative" part is more subjective, and a being "creative genius" may have more to do with where society is at the moment.

 

[markbarendt]

Who or what is this "god" business people keep referring to ?

Yeah that.

cliveh, it always requires practice and work, but the "gift" determines how far you can get when you do the work.

The degree to which someone is "gifted" is normally measured against a standard; a social/religious/technical norm or the commercial value.

If one does not subscribe to the concept of god or a god given (or a specific social/commercial/acedemic) standard like Mozart or Ansel or Einstein; then the possibilities for success are greater. The "greats" typically move things to a new norm, reset the bar. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amedeo_Modigliani , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pablo_Picasso , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Weston

i agree mark
but sometimes having an interest in something and putting forth a herculean effort doesn't really
make one that much better, or half as good as someone who was born with something that they sharpened and honed ...
i mean look at picasso, for example. he had the gift at a very young age. as a teenager he took the exam
to go to the acadamie de beaux arts ... the exam typically takes 2 years to complete, he did it in 2 weeks
and it was the better than any exam they had ever received before him ( and he was the youngest to ever take it ).

i have been drawing and painting since i was old enough to hold a pencil and paint brush, i have spent days and hours practicing
but now, a handful of decades later, i can't draw a straight line with a ruler, my drawings typically have 3 or more perspectives
.. i am terrible ... even though i am truly interested in drawing, painting, rendering &c, but it isn't in my genes.

When I say interest, I mean a consuming interest; an "I gotta do it well to eat/survive" type interest.

I will also say that most endeavors cannot be done well in a vacuum, we need the right coaches. I skied from the age of 3. From 4th grade more than 100 days a year. Had great fun, tried hard to be fast, but was typically an also ran that didn't get the coach's attention much; the coaches focussed on the "stars" who were already fast. Still and yet I lived to ski.

It wasn't until after high school when I started teaching skiing and had a couple bosses/coaches who were more skilled and actually paid attention to me that I got fast, actually real fast; faster than anyone I used to ski with by a considerable margin. So fast that I considered going pro. The big "gifts" were the time/opportunity to practice and the coaching I got. IMO it was not some innate trait imparted at birth.

 

[Truzi]

In your guitar example, first you need to define "great". If you mean great as in the top tier of guitar technique, then if it is true you could be great with enough practice, it means you have more talent, or more of an affinity for it than the vast majority of people.

"Not that great" meaning I suck, lol. I'm being colloquial here - not meaning any particular level of virtuosity. There was a point I was better technically than I am now, but I can't devote that much time anymore. Musically, however, I am better than when I was able to spend hours practicing the technical aspects. Defining "musically" is different, but here I mean I sound better because I have a better understanding of the music I attempt to play, as opposed to rote mechanical technique (which is also important).

The point is, when I first wanted to learn, nothing came of it but noise. I believed, as you state, the ability was an inherent trait that I did not have. When I ultimately understood what was involved, I finally and seriously decided to learn. In a perfect world (for me) that allowed my full-time pursuit, I don't know how "good" I could be on any so-called "objective" scale of "talent". However, the OP was not about the outliers in a field, who took things to another level (most likely due to how they thought about and implemented things by letting go of norms and rules, not because of skill, per se). Skill, talent, and being "artistic" are different concepts.

 

[cliveh]

I never realised that Mark was really Eddie the Eagle

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7MmJIy0bjo

 

[markbarendt]

I agree. Clearly standards need to be applied. What I'm assuming are very, very high standards. I think in general people throw around words like "great", "genius", "master" etc. far too easily.

I'm not suggesting that standards need to be applied.

Standards simply favor the status quo.

Breaking the rules simply favors new comers.

Both have value.

 

[pdeeh]

Standards simply favor the status quo.
.

That observation also explains why the proponents of orthodoxy are always so keen that newcomers "learn the rules before they break them" ...