God given gift or just practice?

[cliveh]

I have heard people quote 'I wish I could draw but I can't and that's why I do photography'. In my opinion the ability to draw, or paint, or sculpt is not a God given gift at birth, but one that can be acquired with practice, like many other techniques, such as bricklaying, plastering, photography, etc. What do other think?

 

[frank]

While ones ability to draw may improve with practice, ones maximum potential to draw is a given gift at birth. I see it in the difference between my family compared to my wife's family. There is an inate and natural drawing ability in several members of my family over several generations that is completely absent in my wife's family. It's like singing or dancing, or mathematical ability. Practice may improve this ability but even with unlimited dedication and practice, not everyone can become great at these endeavors. My life experience leads me to believe this. I draw on 30 years as an elementary school teacher.

 

[pdeeh]

I agree with frank and disagree with clive, although I would not agree with the the idea of a "gift given" - too intentional for my taste, thank you

There was a similar though not identical thread a few months ago. I said there

I see photographs as one medium for art - and it's the art bit that's difficult, whether one's medium is paint, stone, silver gelatine prints or indeed words.

And some people (the vast majority, perhaps) simply don't have the ability to make really good art, to develop a style and a vision of their own that is distinctive and outstanding. This isn't to denigrate all those people (hardly, I am one myself) but just to acknowledge that some are gifted and most are not.

I don't believe any old person can become Edward Weston (or Marc Chagall or Barbara Hepworth or Mantegna or whoever) just by dint of studying hard for 15 minutes every day before breakfast for a year (or 10000 hours or whatever the latest fad is) ... or, you might be able to, if you have "the gift" latent within you

Again, to emphasise, this is not to denigrate anyone: I do believe anyone can produce something "artistic", sometimes with guidance, sometimes spontaneously, the question for me is about doing so consistently.

 

[cliveh]

I would perhaps agree to some extent with the God given gift in terms of mental ability for subjects like mathematics, word power and remembrance. But this may be down to conditions like Asperger’s or other conditions. But skills involving practical ability I believe can be acquired by practice.

 

[pdeeh]

Acquiring a technical skill is not the same thing as having an artistic ability.

I know plenty of local "professional" painters who are perfectly technically skilled at applying paint to canvas, rendering scenes accurately and with appropriate perspective and so on and so forth, but whose paintings are nevertheless just illustrations.

I don't understand what Asperger's syndrome has to do with this, by the way.

 

[snapguy]

The Tramp

Charlie Chaplin said that "genius is dedication to the point of madness." Everyone has some things they are good at and some things they are lousy at. A mix of having the right things for whatever you set out to do helps. When you want it more than anything else including friends and family you probably get pretty good at it. And lonely.

 

[Poisson Du Jour]

Let's leave out this talk about God and theology and get down to practical matters of human behavioural and aptitude development that makes us all different.

People can be naturally gifted with an aptitude for art or photography, just as they can grow up with an aptitude for electronics, mechanics or the fine motor and dexterity required for surgery. It's a natural progression and every person has something as their natural strength, even if they do not know it.

I would be careful with the definition of 'gifted'. I have has an invaluable working background with gifted and talented children who are easily identified from around the age of two and go through dramatically accelerated schooling. Giftedness is a trait of very high achievers, while aptitude and enthusiasm are qualities that are defined from a natural interest that is pursued and refined over time.

Aspergers is a very difficult thing to diagnose correctly and assumptions on the capacities of people thought to suffer from an autism spectrum disorder are often proven wrong over time. That is to say, people with ASD can be very high-achieving intellectuals, but not particularly gifted.

 

[cliveh]

Acquiring a technical skill is not the same thing as having an artistic ability.

I know plenty of local "professional" painters who are perfectly technically skilled at applying paint to canvas, rendering scenes accurately and with appropriate perspective and so on and so forth, but whose paintings are nevertheless just illustrations.

I don't understand what Asperger's syndrome has to do with this, by the way.

An artistic ability can be developed in the same way as a technical skill. The reference to Asperger’s or other conditions is only to illustrate a driving force to excel in a particular achievement.

 

[pdeeh]

I think you probably have some significant misapprehensions about Asperger's Syndrome but this is probably not the time or place to to correct them.
Suffice to say it is rather more complex in presentation than your post implies

 

[frank]

Please, let's leave god and the autistic spectrum out of this discussion. Just not helpful or meaningful or relevant.

Lets refer to nature (genetics) = natural, innate abilities

 

[analoguey]

What about nurture?
The environment brought up in, the exposure to arts (whichever kind), and possibly the exposure to the idea of 'developing a style' or the idea of not 'needing to conform'?


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[frank]

Nurture includes environment and practice. Nurturing will improve an ability, but one cannot exceed ones innate potential, IMO.

No matter how dedicated I became and no matter how much I practiced, my innate ability (potential) to sing prevents me from becoming a great singer. Certainly mt singing would improve (it couldn't get any worse) but I can never become a great, pleasing to listen to, singer.

I knew a young person who dedicated years and years to dancing. It was her life. She lived and breathed dance. When I saw her dance, it was painful to watch. She memorized and completed multitudinous complex movements and steps but she was robotic and stilted, with no fluidity or artistry in her movements. Her years and years of lessons had certainly taught her how to dance better than before she started, but she just didn't have what it took, no innate ability, to dance beautifully.

 

[analoguey]

I'm not sure I agree on the singing part. A very famous singer had only practiced singing film tracks and she really is splendid.
Then there are sportsmen who really have come through because of hardwork - not that 'gifted' ability. (Referring to some batsmen here. Those familiar with cricket probably know batting can be quite artistic/ poetry in motion)

'Innate potential'? This is not a height or such physical attribute to be set at a 'maximum potential' beyond which one cant grow!

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[cliveh]

Nurture includes environment and practice. Nurturing will improve an ability, but one cannot exceed ones innate potential, IMO.

No matter how dedicated I became and no matter how much I practiced, my innate ability (potential) to sing prevents me from becoming a great singer. Certainly mt singing would improve (it couldn't get any worse) but I can never become a great, pleasing to listen to, singer.

I knew a young person who dedicated years and years to dancing. It was her life. She lived and breathed dance. When I saw her dance, it was painful to watch. She was robotic and stilted, with no fluidity or artistry in her movements. Her years and years of lessons had certainly taught her how to dance better than before she started, but she just didn't have what it took, no innate ability, to dance beautifully.

Singing is not a good analogy to this thread, as it depends on the vocal cords of the person in question. The thread is about practical ability and practice and dancing is very dependent on balance and fitness.

 

[frank]

Dancing, drawing, singing, all artistic endeavors/abilities. Certainly different abilities.

How can you accept innate potential limits to some abilities, but argue against them for other abilities?

 

[analoguey]

Isnt there a ford quote that goes something like 'if you think you can, you can. If you think you can't, you can't'?

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[cliveh]

Dancing, drawing, singing, all artistic endeavors/abilities. Certainly different abilities.

How can you accept innate potential limits to some abilities, but argue against them for other abilities?

Let’s take someone like Lionel Messi, who is probably one of the greatest football players on the planet. He obviously has a great innate ability through foresight, perfect balance and intuitive grasp of position to perform as he does. But these skills he has acquired through practice and endeavour.

 

[frank]

Let’s take someone like Lionel Messi, who is probably one of the greatest football players on the planet. He obviously has a great innate ability through foresight, perfect balance and intuitive grasp of position to perform as he does. But these skills he has acquired through practice and endeavour.

But your position is that anyone could achieve his abilities and successes given the same practice and dedication. That's obviously not true, since tens of thousands of boys endeavor to achieve the same, but he stands out.

 

[cliveh]

But your position is that anyone could achieve his abilities and successes given the same practice and dedication. That's obviously not true, since tens of thousands of boys endeavor to achieve the same, but he stands out.

But I would argue that those tens of thousands of boys are not as committed to the same practice and dedication.

 

[analoguey]

I don't think anyone can make the case of someone achieving the exact same thing - but, the fact that sporting records are made, broken, does show that greatness is achievable - By different people?

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[frank]

"Gift" or "talent" or "affinity" determines how far one can get in a particular discipline. The degree to which one possesses these usually places an upper bound or limit of sorts. Further, where creativity is involved, it is never enough to be gifted technically.

Right. This thread is about whether artistic ability is innate or can anyone reach the same high level given enough practice. The discussion began specifically with the ability to draw.

 

[Double Negative]

It's both, really. Innate talent and practice... Some people just can't draw, sculpt - or photograph - to save their lives... Even with practice. Though if you have the former, the latter does wonders.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

I have heard people quote 'I wish I could draw but I can't and that's why I do photography'. In my opinion the ability to draw, or paint, or sculpt is not a God given gift at birth, but one that can be acquired with practice, like many other techniques, such as bricklaying, plastering, photography, etc. What do other think?

Truebut, if God didn't give to you, it takes a lot of work to learn even the basics.I did it and still suck at it.That's what digitl is good for.example attached.

 

[thegman]

I have heard people quote 'I wish I could draw but I can't and that's why I do photography'. In my opinion the ability to draw, or paint, or sculpt is not a God given gift at birth, but one that can be acquired with practice, like many other techniques, such as bricklaying, plastering, photography, etc. What do other think?

Both.

Without any training at all, my girlfriend can draw far better than I can, it seems to be an innate skill. I'm sure that with enough effort I could catch up though.

I get the "can't draw, but can take photos", because photography is one of the few arts/crafts which does not need any *technical* skill. Sure *technical* skill can help, but it's totally optional. Drawing, painting, sculpting, *requires* a high skill level.

I think that almost any skill can be acquired with enough practice, but some people will have a natural ability which will make it easier for them.

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

When I was young I didn't think I could draw but then I took some art classes in high school. I was messy but not bad. I never pursued art as a hobby or profession because I never had the patience for it which is odd because I'd often spend many hours in the darkroom trying to perfect a print. I think most people can learn and become very proficient at nearly anything... if they WANT to. I also believe that true genius in a given realm is born to a person.