Getting Fiber Based Paper Flat

wogster · Jun 28, 2009

Bertil said:
The ideal, I think, is drying on fiberglass mesh screens (mosquito net!) and flattening with a dry mounting press (and cooling down under the same press and storing in a proper way).

As far as I understand the prints curl because of the edges are drying faster than the rest of the print; this leads to some kind of tension in the paper base and the print curls. With this in view I use a combination of several methods: fiberglass mesh screens, blotters, an ordinary flatbed print dryer, and a press I use an old fashioned plant press, but other solutions is of course possible. The rest sounds complicated, but works quite good and now almost second nature!
//Bertil

I always thought it was because the paper and emulsion were affected differently by the dry/wet/dry cycle in that the paper expands slightly and that caused the print to curl. Double weight prints are stiffer and thus do not curl as much. RC papers keep the paper almost completely dry, so they do not curl much at all. If you keep the print mechanically flat when drying then the paper will generally remain flat. In the old days you had drying presses, which essentially kept it flat while adding heat to assist the drying process. Seems that someone could make a good cottage business building print drying presses again.

Bertil · Jun 28, 2009

Paul, you are probably right that the curling tendency of fiber paper also depends on the difference in how the paper and the emulsion side are affected in the process. But I rely on the following experience: if you let the wet print dry on the mesh, the edges are quite dry and curling after some time, though the center is still not that dry but quite flat. Putting such a print under pressure between blotters for some hours, you will have a flat print, though still not dry, which - at least - feels as if the remaining moisture is very even distributed in the print. It's quite easy to flat dry such a print with an old electric print dryer, thus without using a expensive dry mount press. Just putting a wet print on such a drying press, at least if it's just the old type with a single sheet of cotton on top, will not always give a satisfactory result - at least I haven't succeed that way. With such a simple dryer you don't have to wait 3-4 days with the prints under a stack of books in order to fully inspect your results - it’s enough that the prints cool down under pressure during some hours.
There are obviously many simple methods, all are good if they work!
//Bertil

Willie Jan · Jul 3, 2009

What I do now is:

Dry it at a hanger or flat on a glass plate.
(Before I taped it to the glass, but due to the shrinking in the length region of the paper, it looks different than the one dried without tape.)
Next I flat it under a press at 85 degrees C.
Next step is to get an archival piece of thick museum carton.
put a piece of hot press tissue at the back.
position it onto the carton and press it for 1.5 min at 85 degrees.

Next i take it out and put it between two heavy wood boards to let it drop temperature so that the glue will set itself in this position.
If you let it drop temp. without pressure the carton, it will get an angle, because one side is glued and the other side not.

dancqu · Jul 4, 2009

wogster said:
If you keep the print mechanically flat when drying then the paper
will generally remain flat. In the old days you had drying presses,
which essentially kept it flat while adding heat to assist the drying
process.

Seems that someone could make a good cottage business building
print drying presses again.

Sure, Dry and Flat in one operation. I've posted a few times
this thread detailing the method I employ. Two components;
corrugated board and interfacing, a non-woven hydrophobic
material; that rather than an absorbent blotter material.

A practically costless, COOL way to flat-&-dry. How
about that? I may make it yet into a cottage
business with Flat-&-Dry. Dan

Tref Hopkins · Aug 18, 2009

Maybe not helpful, but I go with squeegying prints on way out of wash (NOT with same squeegy used on darkroom splashback for evaluation!) using the thick acrylic dividers from the washer.

Prints then go face up onto mesh drying screens, and curl like hell while drying, finally settling a little.

Finally, I crank up the secret weapon - an old Kodak drum glazer. The drum itself has a coupla scratches and could never work as a glazer again, but I set the thing going nice and slowly at a moderate temperature, and once it's warmed up I feed prints in. They go in on the belt face down. Care needs to be paid or you could get folded corners. Prints come out nice and flat once cooled again.

In my experience super curly prints that never flatten have almost certainly spent far too long wet, in which case you are washing to excess or you left them soaking overnight or something. The only evidence I've ever seen for Eastern European papers being less flattenable is the old Forte RC's - which were simply on a thinner base and had a much shorter wet time than Ilford's much heavier RC MGIV. Less mucking about and better washing fixed this no problem. I've yet to meet an FB that won't dry properly once you've bothered to find out what it likes and what it doesn't. General rider: any print will curl a little due to humidity at times. Restricting this may not be a good idea long term for the structure of the paper as a whole - note that archival mounting techniques stipulate essentially hanging the print in the mat from one edge...

Tref Hopkins · Aug 18, 2009

I've also hear old print rats talk about adding glycerine to final wash and pegging back to back. Tried in college days and decided it made little difference to the normal-ish DW FB (MCC118 actually) I was using. No idea waht long term effect if any the glycerine might have.

Archival print blotter stacks supposedly work quite well!

Short of the breaking the print's back over a drawer/ruler/etc technique I don't think I've come across a truly successful method that doesn't involve heat somewhere along the line!

Tried stacks of books again, as a student, and gave up on it as folklore after a week or so...

If only RC papers looked as nice. They're a sight easier to handle! ^_^

dancqu · Aug 20, 2009

Tref Hopkins said:
h
Short of the breaking the print's back over a drawer/
ruler/ etc technique I don't think I've come across a
truly successful method that doesn't involve heat
somewhere along the line!

I've detailed eleven times this thread a way to flat
and dry, in one operation, without heat. A few others
have posted one or more ways to flat and dry, without
heat, in one operation. Dan

Lew1716 · Oct 15, 2009

You may also have to watch the amount of hardener in your fixer. Too little and the print may never come off, too much and the print won't take the gloss from the plate. Also, if you have a mind, you can try other mirror surfaces - like a plate of glass - I think the ferrotype plates were originally used because they are thinner than glass and don't break.

Colin Corneau · Oct 15, 2009

I use a non-hardening fixer with FB paper - it helps with toning and will also prevent problems that Lew mentions above.

Janos · Jan 1, 2010

We used to squugee them flat, with the image facing outwards, on a clean piece of glass, like a window.
They drop off when perfectly dry, so make sure they fall onto something clean. Naturally there is still a slight curl towards the image side, but no buckles or bumps. Ferrotyping is great if the plate is perfect and you like the mirror gloss- still beats the mirror gloss of any RC paper, but the nicest in unglazed glossy, as favoured by the great Ansell Adams, and many of his contemporaries.
Otherwise, squeegweeing off the excessw and then laying flat onstretched flyscreen material, (fibreglass, of course, not metal, and they dry naturally, but need to be flattened. This is best done against blotting paper in a dry-mounting press. This is the best use for such a press, as actually using it for mounting somehow reduces the beauty of a naked FB print.

kerrpanda · Jan 9, 2010

I will squeegee the print and dry it on a screen. When dry, I will place all the prints on a flat, smooth surface, put an empty photo paper box over them, place a heavy book of Ansel Adams' photographs (that fits perfectly) into the box, put a few more things on top and look in a couple of days later. Flat as can be. No heat necessary.

cqphotography · Feb 1, 2010

fotch · Feb 1, 2010

cqphotography said:
..

:confused:

tvora · Feb 1, 2010

Can you please advise what is the best way drying your FB prints, I don't have spacial drying unit or press.
I'm going through little problem at the moment as I was trying to dray my FB glossy prints face down on super clean sheet of glass and now they are half stuck on it and I am not sure if I will be able to take them off with ruining the emulsion. :?
Thanks.

Neal · Feb 2, 2010

Dear tvora,

There are many ways to dry your FB prints as I'm sure you've read in this thread. If you want to get that super gloss without a special print dryer, look here: http://www.w7wwg.com/prints.htm. I've never tried it so if you do all I can say is good luck and post your results.

With luck you can get the prints off by soaking them with water, but I think you are going to have to reprint them.

Neal Wydra

Ektagraphic · Feb 20, 2010

Can you use a cloths iron to iron a print flat or even a low heat craft iron that is like a small cloths iron?

ozphoto · Feb 21, 2010

Ektagraphic said:
Can you use a cloths iron to iron a print flat or even a low heat craft iron that is like a small cloths iron?

I've done this on a number of occasions with a piece of blotting paper on top of the print for protection.

I use the "cotton" setting on my iron and it works very well. I iron over the blotting paper several times, turning the print over between ironing.

Works quite well for me - but I'd check the settings on the iron you intend to use on a test print - don't want any nasty surprises with that masterpiece you just completed. . . . .

Ektagraphic · Feb 21, 2010

Thanks. I'll give it a try. I must say I have fallen in love with the Fiber Base and I don't think I want to go back!!! It's so nice. It seem to me like my Ilford Muligrade FB that is supposed to be glossy isn't very glossy so I am curious as to how matte the other surfaces are.

richard ide · Feb 21, 2010

Your FB glossy paper would have a high gloss even more appealing than RC if it were dried using a ferrotype plate. Hard to get these days, I imagine. You might try squeegeeing an FB print on to a sheet of glass which has a very thin coating of paste wax and letting it dry. I have nver tried this but remember reading it in a book many years ago.

Ektagraphic · Feb 21, 2010

It is glossy I guess but a diffrent glossy.

richard ide · Feb 21, 2010

It is glossy but also has a texture. Ferrotyping gives the paper a smooth as glass high gloss finish. Personally I prefer the finish you get just by air drying.

allandan · Feb 21, 2010

An Old Trick

Place two fiber prints face to face after removing all excess moisture. Put them between two pieces of blotter paper (the ones used for desks are ok if they are white). Put a big book over the sandwich and allow the prints to dry. When dry, undo every thing and the prints will fall apart very straight.

Another option is to get an electric print dryer off ebay and use it--on low. If the canvas looks soiled or chemistry stained, first wash the canvas in warm water (not hot, it will shrink) and mild detergent. Let it air dry.

paulie · Feb 21, 2010

water colour tape, i would not use anything else ever with fibre

marco.taje · Feb 23, 2010

Joining the FB Novices Club here... I've been reading all the thread and, since ferrotyping is not an option at the moment, I am looking for some more bread and butter solution.
I tried ironing with a clothes iron today, putting the test print (Ilford Multigrade FB glossy) between two cotton sheets... Well, I ironed for some minutes, cotton setting, but the print is possibly a bit curlier than at the beginning of the treatment. Any inputs?
The print was COMPLETELY dry, shall I do this while the print is still damp?

Another question: I have a glass table in my darkroom area. I've read that a good practice is squeegeeing the print on glass and letting it dry face down. Are we sure that the emulsion won't stick to the glass? What about letting the print dry between two panes of glass? Too little air to dry the print?

Lots of questions, sorry... Forgive me, but it seems like I got the processing right enough, it feels stupid to be stuck with the curl..

Thanks for your insights

GRHazelton · Mar 3, 2010

Back in the day we used a commercial product which contained, I imagine, either ethelyne or propolyne glycol. Beware, ethelyne glycol, a constituent of auto antifreeze, is poisonous, causing kidney failure! Its cousin, propolyne glycol, isn't. The prints were soaked in this stuff after the usual wash. As I recall it helped, at least some. I think the glycols are hygroscopic; their presence in the print's fiber base would encourage them to retain some moisture and thus not curl, at least to some extent. Perhaps this will jog another member's memory....

Getting Fiber Based Paper Flat

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