Getting Fiber Based Paper Flat

Anton Lukoszevieze · Feb 26, 2009

I hang prints back to back, then when 97% dry, smooth mount board either side of foto, heavy books on top, 24 hours, very flat.
With very large prints I tape with brown gummed tape onto rigid surface, allow to dry, cut dry carefully, pretty flat then.

ldh · Mar 6, 2009

I have a post here about how I make my fiber prints flat...if you do a search it should be here...its a little labor intnsive but it works very very well!!

Larry

dancqu · Mar 7, 2009

An Update

dancqu said:
By "facing material" you mean the polyester separator
sheets? I can't see that an issue. Pre dried by sponge or
squeegee and placed upon those non-wetting separators
precludes contact with the corrugated board. No more
than water vapor transfers from the prints, through
the boards facing's, and out of the stack. A print
layer with top and bottom separators. Dan

My Corrugated Board Stack Dryer has evolved some.
A few have mentioned edge waving or frilling. It is not
due to humidity. It is due to a differential in the rate of
drying. With some drying methods the very edges are in
effect more exposed. The more rapid drying induces stress.

Interestingly with corrugated board the waving only
occurs if the print's outer edges are placed close to the
open ends of the corrugations. Edges within the stack and
those parallel with the corrugations show no sings of waving.
Likely those using platen drying methods, heated or other
wise, will observe the same.

I placed prints deeper within the stack and that cured my
minor case of wavy outer edges. Also, I managed to reduce
the post dryer development of the inevitable gentile concavity
towards the emulsion side by drying emulsion to emulsion
with a separator twixt. So the stack now builds thusly:
C. board, separator, prints, separator, prints,
separator, C. board. Dan

harrydel · Mar 15, 2009

After I have toned and am positive I will never get my 16 x 20 prints wet again, I trim the edges ever so slightly w/ an xacto knife and ruler. The dimensions of the prints I'm working on right now only allow trimming of two sides; works as well as trimming four.

After the prints are trimmed, I place them individually between 2 pieces of 4 ply acid free board in dry mount press at 200 degrees for a few minutes. I then put them under a print flattening plate I got from light impressions to cool though I have used a heavy book in the past. A teacher explained that trimming the prints releases the surface tension of the dried emulsion.

It's super easy and my prints are flatter than the unexposed paper was straight out of the box. A 1/32" trim or even less has worked for me. hope this helps.

LaChou · Mar 18, 2009

You can make a dood gloss with a glossy FB paper and a plexiglas sheet without surface defects. Put the prints in the water for 24 hours. Before applying them to the plexiglas, put them into 95-100C water for 1-2 minutes. The plexiglas must be washed with soap just before the procedure and be still wet. Press very firmly and make even (also firmly) with an iron through a newspaper or, better, flimsy. Wrap in some cloth and put vertically in some quiet place to dry. When the print has dried it must not come off but will stay on the glass due to static electricity. Take it off the glass with a distinctive sound of micro electrical disharges. You will have a glossy even print.

jmal · Mar 20, 2009

Just wanted to mention that I finally tried dancqu's stack method of drying and the result was perfectly flat prints. No edge waving or any other issues. Took about 4 days to fully dry. Thanks Dan.

catem · Mar 20, 2009

I line dry, back to back, pegs at 4 corners (pegs with grips that don't bite in, plastic not wooden, though not a problem if you trim off).
Then under weights for a day or two if necessary (it isn't always).
Air drying is supposed to be the safest 'archivally'.
The wavy edge lines are usually from handling the prints whilst wet/paper stretching - tends to be more noticeable on larger prints.
With careful handling throughout the process, it can be prevented (don't grip the print in the middle of an edge, but at the corners).

jmal · Mar 21, 2009

catem, I NEVER grab the print in the middle and do not touch prints except for moving from tray to tray (again, always by the smallest bit of corner necessary). As dancqu mentions, the wavy edge is due to the difference in drying time for the emulsion and non-emulsion sides. His stack method slows the drying time enough that the prints come out flat. Perfectly flat.

johnnywalker · Mar 21, 2009

Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but wasn't there some talk a while ago of Ilford coming out with a flat-drying fibre paper?

catem · Mar 21, 2009

jmal - yes, sorry, I should read all the thread more carefully before responding, I admit I scanned through later posts and was in fact addressing the point below, rather than answering you specifically.

I agree that slow-drying is best and that's largely why I use the method I do - where I don't get wavy or frilly lines at all. Granted, with prints over 12 x 16 it can get cumbersome (though I do use it for 16 x 20 which is the largest I print). With larger prints I use 2 pegs at least at each top corner. You also have to make sure the prints are 'joined' before you lift them out of water. It's normally possible to avoid any cockling if you're careful, and anything that's there is likely to be a stress mark.

rwyoung said:
I tried it once with limited success for 16x20 where you hang two of them clipped back to back on a line. Worked OK but they were kinda "ripply".

Anybody do that method?

catem · Mar 22, 2009

johnnywalker said:
Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but wasn't there some talk a while ago of Ilford coming out with a flat-drying fibre paper?

To be honest, I find most fibre-based papers dry pretty flat these days, including Ilford papers (though this may be helped by fairly benign climate conditions). Although it would be nice to have a paper that dried dead flat (the agfa classic adox replacement samples were good, as was agfa classic itself) I'm not sure I personally would choose to buy a paper for that reason alone - it would have to have other qualities.

dancqu · Mar 22, 2009

jmal said:
Just wanted to mention that I finally tried dancqu's stack
method of drying and the result was perfectly flat prints.
No edge waving or any other issues. Took about 4 days
to fully dry. Thanks Dan.

I'm pleased at your success. Not the quickest way to flat and
dry. It does help though that the two steps are simultaneous.
Can't be any other method so low in cost which will produce
flat AND dry. And do it gently with out a plug.

I've been shopping for suppliers with thoughts of offering
units on a commercial basis. With your favorable results
I'm encouraged in that endeavor.

BTW, did you find some of that hydrophobic non-woven
sheet material I've mentioned? Interfacing? Fabric stores
carry the stuff and the firm surfaced works well. Dan

jmal · Mar 22, 2009

Dan,

I used interfacing and corrugated board boxes that I cut to size. Cost about $3-5 dollars if I remember correctly.

Vonder · Mar 29, 2009

I have finished my first box of Oriental's warmtone fiber-based paper, struggling with this flatness issue most of the time. I finally decided to shell out the $100 or so bucks for a print dryer - you know, those electrostatic ones B&H sells - and am pleased with the results. While nowhere near as flat as a RC print, they are acceptable, and the dryer accomodates up to 11x14 paper, which is currently the largest size I print. I will be ordering more fiber-based paper now.

Incidentally, a question for the printing experts out there - in Ansel Adams' "The Print" he mentions that the main longevity concern for RC papers is cracking of the resin layer. He mentions that furture improvements may make that a non-issue. Did those "future improvements" ever come to pass? If so, are they real or just marketing hype?

Shmoo · Mar 29, 2009

I let my prints get almost dry (on a mesh rack face up), then I put them between acid free mat board sheets and weight it down until they dry. You can also iron them between mat board sheets...unless you're one of those guys that doesn't own an iron...

gedra · Jun 15, 2009

Drying fibre based paper

What is the best way to dry fiber based paper - drying machine, blotting paper, print screen - or something else?
Thank you.

Anscojohn · Jun 15, 2009

I prefer screens. After drying, I put them between blotting paper sheets, between two sheets of 3/4 inch plywood, with several heavy books on top, to flatten them.

ronlamarsh · Jun 15, 2009

Drying fiber base

I have used screens for the last 5-10 yrs and then flattened with a warm dry mount press until I started doing 16X20 which I found frilled on the edges when flattened with a dry moint press. I tried blotting tablets but found the interleaving paper wrinkled after the first use then left marks on my prints afterwards. So I am now using AnscoJohns methods of drying on a screen then pressing under blotter paper under weights. It takes more time but provides extremely flat prints at minimum risk of damage. I would shy away from a heating style dryer.

dancqu · Jun 16, 2009

I'm still promoting my corrugated board stack dryer.
It uses non-woven hydrophobic sheeting as separator
material rather than blotters.

Search for, interfacing, OR, corrugated. Dan

JBrunner · Jun 16, 2009

Threads merged.

paulie · Jun 22, 2009

watercolour tape

stick the wet prints via there edges with white water colour tape onto glass, it will then dry in a few hours under tension and will be as flat as when you pulled it from the box, simple, just squeegee the print well and use a spray gun to wet the water colour tape and the sponge the excess water off

Jonathan R · Jun 26, 2009

In my experience, the only time they'll be perfectly flat is when they've been dry-mounted on card. To get them tolerably flat meantime, I follow much the same procedure as others above, but with much less equipment. Air dry for a few hours face-up on taut fly-screen material until the emulsion side is visibly dry. Then turn over and let them finish drying face-down. Once touch-dry, they will be curled along the edges. Place them in neat stacks of up to 6 sheets, all facing the same way, with a waste print to protect the emulsion of the top one. Place each stack on a flat surface with a pile of large heavy books on top. All the books must be larger than the print. Leave for 3-4 days, or longer if you can bear the suspense!

Anscojohn · Jun 26, 2009

nyoung said:
Ok,
I haven't done any printing on fiber based paper since high school but I want take it up again out of dissatisfaction with the tonal range of the RC papers.

So, two questions:

How do you get the darn things to dry flat? I have had, in the distant past, many bad experiences with dryers.

Does anyone still use ferrotype plates? If so, how does one use them? I long ago inherited 4 or 5 but I don't quite get how you use them.

******
It's not so much a question of getting them to dry flat for me; it's getting them flat after they are dry. I air dry my prints on screens in the basement--so they do not get bone dry. Then, what I do is interleave the prints in clean blotter sheets; place them between two large pieces of 3/4 inch plywood I bought and cut for the purpose; then stacking books on top for a coupla days. Low tech, but it works well.
Ferrotype tins are for glossing.

Bertil · Jun 28, 2009

The ideal, I think, is drying on fiberglass mesh screens (mosquito net!) and flattening with a dry mounting press (and cooling down under the same press and storing in a proper way).

As far as I understand the prints curl because of the edges are drying faster than the rest of the print; this leads to some kind of tension in the paper base and the print curls. With this in view I use a combination of several methods: fiberglass mesh screens, blotters, an ordinary flatbed print dryer, and a press – I use an old fashioned plant press, but other solutions is of course possible. The rest sounds complicated, but works quite good and now almost second nature!

The prints are squeegeed and put face down on fibreglass screens; on top some layer of acid free blotters to avoid too much curling. The prints should not be entirely dry at this stage of the process, it is enough that they can be put face to face without sticking to each other. When dry to that extent it’s time to use the plant press. Normally I make my prints on 91/2x12 in. papers, so I have cut some acid free blotters to the same size, and I use them between pairs of the prints put face to face, thus making up a bundle with prints and blotters (and blotters on top and back of the bundle as well) that is put into the press.

After some hours in the press the moisture in the prints seems to be more evenly distributed and the prints in fact entirely flat–but off course still not completely dry! In fact it will take weeks for the prints to dry in the press! So, it’s time to use the electric print dryer to squeeze out the remaining moisture in the prints. The dryer can be quite hot and the print is completely dry within a minute or so (putting your hands on the canvas of the dryer you will easily feel when the print is dry!).

It would be nice if this was enough, but unfortunately it is not! The very dry and now more and less hot and quite flat print should cool down in the press, and for the best results, in my experience, between the blotters which probably contain a rest of moisture and thus gives the print some kind of normal humidity. After some hours in the press the process is complete and the prints are flat, and they will stay flat, if properly stored.

I have explained my method to some friends with print curling problems who responded by investing in a dry mounting press! Maybe they made the right decision, but I think my method works quite nice – at least for me.
//Bertil

Jim Chinn · Jun 28, 2009

Before I acquired a dry mount press I would place prints between sheets of acid free mounting board and place weights on top after drying between screens. Now I flatten in the press and then let them cool between mat boards with just a couple books for weight. Depending on the brand of paper they may re-acquire a light wave or bow when stored loose in archival boxes but that is easily eliminated with either dry mounting or tape mounting to a back board with a window mat on top.

Getting Fiber Based Paper Flat

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