Getting Fiber Based Paper Flat

papo · Jan 7, 2009

Ooze, I recommend you to try the method that Domin and I have described. You'll be surprised how much easier it is and the result is perfect. The only problem may be getting the right tape, it must hold on the wet paper (or rather dry with the paper and hold) and glass as well. The good old brown paper tape with a glue layer is what you need, but it may not be available at all stationery shops.
And print size doesn't matter provided you have a suitable sheet of glass (strictly speaking, glass is not absolutely necessary, it may be anything flat, rigid and with a smooth surface, like laminated plywood, etc.)

Domin · Jan 7, 2009

I get the tape from art supply store. I was said watercolor painters use it to keep paper flat.

bsdunek · Jan 7, 2009

I use blotter rolls, but I don't think you can buy them any more. This is two sheets of blotter paper between sheets of soft corragated cardboard. You place the prints between the blotter paper and roll the whole thing up with the prints rolled emulsion side out. I still have three of these.
I also use blotter books which are hard to find. See the attached photo.
Another alternative is to use print flattening solution. A formula is listed in the "Darkroom Cookbook"which is simply 2 oz.of glycerin and water to make 32 oz. or see the second attachment. This is from B&H
These are things we used 50 years ago to flatten prints when there wasn't RC paper. Hard or impossible to find today!
I see the photo of the blotter book didn't work. B&H has these also.

2F/2F · Jan 7, 2009

I press my prints in a dry mount press, then let them cool off while weighed down with some matboard and books. That is good enough for loose storage. Then, when I want to display, I dry mount them. It does not get any more flat than that!

Adrian D · Jan 7, 2009

Seconding the art shop gumstrip method

After years of trying various methods I'm currently having great success with the technique described above where the wet, squeegeed print is lain face up on a large piece of glass (I use a picture frame bought for peanuts from a charity shop- the frame helps keep the glass rigid and makes it easy to handle) and tape it all around with moistened brown gumstrip bought from the art shop, which I also use for the stretching of water colour painting paper. The next day the print is flat, sometimes with a wave, depending on the type of paper, and has a lovely lustrous finish. The brown gumstrip border that remains on the print after knifing it away from the glass I usually leave on, as it makes handling the print easier and makes it less prone to fingermarks etc.

Its become my favourite drying technique for FB.

rwyoung · Jan 7, 2009

I tried it once with limited success for 16x20 where you hang two of them clipped back to back on a line. Worked OK but they were kinda "ripply".

Anybody do that method?

dancqu · Jan 8, 2009

bsdunek said:
I use blotter rolls, but I don't think you can buy them
any more. This is two sheets of blotter paper between
sheets of soft corragated cardboard.

Corrugated Board is correct; just in case somebody is
interested in this superior method of achieving dry and
flat in one move. I used blotter rolls many years ago
when doing up to dozens of prints; Sorority and
Fraternity work.

Now days I use a flat version of the roll. I refer to it as
a Corrugated Board Stack dryer as blotters are not used.
Blotters are an absorbent material. Rather than that I use
separator sheets of non-woven polyester, a non-absorbent
hydorphobic material.

Corrugated Board Blotter Roll and Stack dryers were quite
popular years ago. Besides Kodak and their roll there were
Salthill, Burk & James, and others who made available the
stack type. The Luminos site had a page detailing the
method for really FLAT and, I should add, DRY.

A DIY Corrugated Stack dryer can be extremely inexpensive,
light weight, compact, and have little to great capacity. The
prints dry slowly, gently. Not for the impatient. Dan

dancqu · Jan 9, 2009

Pre-Drying With a Sponge --- Squeegees?

I don't know why pre-drying with a squeegee is so popular.
Close quarters lead me to use a sponge. A sponge literally
draws water from a surface unto itself; no water running
here and there. Dryer prints to start.

Tight quarters or spacious I think the sponge must have
the squeegee beat. Has a careful comparison ever been
made? I've two sizes of photo grade sponges and now
tempted to buy a print squeegee. Tests of the two
twixt each other should be of interest. Are there
squeegees then there are squeegees?
Recommendations? Dan

George Collier · Jan 10, 2009

To rwyoung - I do the back to back hanging thing for all my prints (no matter what size), with all four corners clothespin clipped, the top 2 on the line. They dry flat enough, less so in dryer times of the year. I wash them back to back (but in separate compartments) in a Gravity Works washer, then I pull them out just an inch or so, line up the top corners with the separator in between, then pull both out together and hang together.
I don't squeegee them (too much risk for me) and I suspect that the curling happens in the final stages of drying, so squeegeeing might help shorten the drying time, but I think relative humidity has more to do with the amount of curl, or "frilling" of the edges than anything.
I have tried all of the suggested methods, and for years, blotters, with the corragated separators, which produced the flattest prints, by far, but I got tired of worrying about lint and accumulated contamination, careful as I am.
Screens were ok, but often left a pattern, also need to be cleaned, and had curl.
The back to back hanging is the simplest and works best for me.
I just now did a search on Google for "photo blotters" and found this article - which aligns with most of my experiences - http://www.heylloyd.com/technicl/drying.htm.
In any case, my experience is that no matter how flat they are (even if I flatten with a dry mount press after drying), if I store them in archival boxes, or old paper packets, the relative humidity the day I take them out to mount them is what really matters. Prints that were once perfectly flat might not be the day I take them out to frame them, so - I just hang them as described, and deal with whatever they are on the day I frame them.

Jim Jones · Jan 10, 2009

Decades ago, before RC paper and in a location where the best available paper was Mitsubishi Gekko, I dried prints between two sheets and under a blanket in a bed. This reduced, but didn't eliminate, the curl. Prints were then stored alternately face up and face down in tightly packed photo paper boxes. Complete flattening took a long time, but they are still flat.

dancqu · Jan 10, 2009

George Collier said:
I think relative humidity has more to do with the amount
of "frilling" of the edges than anything.
I have tried all of the suggested methods, and for years, blotters,
with the corragated separators, which produced the flattest prints,
by far, but I got tired of worrying about lint and accumulated
contamination, careful as I am.

Your method of pulling and hanging wet prints reminds me
of a wheat or rice glue method of mounting prints. A same
but blank or waste print, also wet glued, is mounted on the
back of the mount board. Two wets = no warp.

To level the playing field, lint, dust, and chemical
contamination are of concern what ever the method of
drying. I think my adoption of a water repellent hydrophobic
non-woven material an improvement over the usual absorbent
blotters. I believe it leaves NO lint of itself and being water
repellent it should need no more cleaning then screens of
any same synthetic fabric. The non-woven polyester is
called interfacing and is available from any well
stocked fabric store. Very inexpensive. Dan

removed account4 · Jan 10, 2009

PVia said:
Has anyone ever tried a book press?

yes, and it works very well for things that aren't too big.
the trick is to put them face to face and back to back
(between masonite or clean boards)
when the prints aren't tacky to the touch, so they won't glue themselves together.

i use a nipping press and i use that from time to time,
and i also have a book press i got from pottery barn ( yes its true! )
and a small one i got from gaylord brothers.

for big things, i back to back face to face them, and put them between sheets of matboard and under countertop.
a bookbinder i worked with used to have heavy glass block ( ww2 navy warplane ) windshield. it worked great! he wasn't making photographs flat, but things he pasted/glued. kind of sort of the same thing...

George Collier · Jan 12, 2009

Dan - I realized I didn't read your post carefully. What is the "water repellent hydrophobic non-woven material" called and where do you get it? (and where do you get the corrugated separators?) Sounds like this method is worth a try, as I am not the impatient type.

dancqu · Jan 13, 2009

George Collier said:
Dan - I realized I didn't read your post carefully.
What is the "water repellent hydrophobic non-woven
material" called and where do you get it? (and where
do you get the corrugated separators?) Sounds like this
method is worth a try, as I am not the impatient type.

I've not been very specific. The non-woven hydrophobic
material is of polyester and is available at fabric outlets.
I've tested at least four of these thin sheet materials. The
most recent has some body making it easy to handle. It
also is calendered so has none of the fuzz some do.
I can recommend it but will need to pin down it's
identity. Some thing I forgot to do my last
visit to the store.

The corrugated board separators came from Forestry
Suppliers. A dozen, 12 x 18 inch, cost under $10 + S&H.
A search of Google for, plant presses, or, corrugated
ventilators, will bring up quite a few sources.

I've been investigating the corrugated board supplies.
I'm looking for a source of the same board but in
larger size. The above size is good at most to
11 x ?. I believe that specific board is water
resistant; it resists deformation.

I'll PM with in the next few days with that polyesters
exact identity. If you drop by a fabric shop ask to
see their interfacing. If you've a mind, order
a dozen of those ventilator boards. Dan

jmal · Jan 13, 2009

Dan,

Do us all a favor and post the specifics here rather than in a PM. I'm interested. Also, are the corrugated boards simply cardboard or are they something more sophisticated?

Reinhold · Jan 13, 2009

Corrugated fiberboard sources:
Your local appliance dealer has refrigerator and dishwasher size cartons for free. Cut them into any size you want, just make sure that the corrugations run parallel to your airflow so the moisture can be easily blown out of the stack. It's usually a heavier grade of paper, so they'll last a loooong time. Don't worry about water resistant board, you'll remove all standing water off of the print before putting them into your drier anyway.

Ask any dressmaker about interfacing, and they'll use the phrase "Pellon". Read about it here:
http://www.pellonideas.com/content/view/14/30/

For non-woven materials, DuPont's "Tyvek" is very good. Read about it here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyvek
It's available in thicker 18lb sheets (thicker = better), 25 sheets, 17 x 22", $38.99 here:
Dead Link Removed

Another non-woven olefin product is "Reemay".
Gaylord promotes it as "an interleaving material when drying wet photographs" here:
http://www.gaylordmart.com/adblock.asp?abid=2123&sid=A70968E7878647678611A8DA39F707

Personally. I find acid free blotters work very well in my homemade drier discussed here:
http://www.classicbwphoto.com/Blog/A40AA6E8-A280-11DB-9B69-000A95E8D0C0.html

Conservation grade blotter papers are also from Gaylord here:
http://www.gaylordmart.com/listing.asp?H=3&PCI=128007

If you want to go First Cabin, you can get archival corrugated board from Gaylord here:
http://www.gaylordmart.com/listing.asp?H=3&PCI=128003

That oughta get you started.
Have fun.

Reinhold

dancqu · Jan 14, 2009

jmal said:
Dan, Do us all a favor and post the specifics here rather than in a PM.
I'm interested. Also, are the corrugated boards simply cardboard or
are they something more sophisticated?

Cardboard is nothing more than a heavy, thick paper.
Search Google for, corrugated board . Wikipedia has
a good amount of information and a very good
illustration. Scroll down some then magnify.

Note the choice of thickness. The A flute I've been
using has the greatest of air passage twixt the two
face sheets. Likely the reason it is termed A flute
Ventilator. C flute has nearly as much. B flute
by comparison has constricted air passage.

Any good quality A or C flute corrugated will do.
I think the board I've been using is water resistant.
Although the prints are no more than very damp
when placed on the drying sheets, the humidity
must be close to 100% while the prints are
drying; high enough to warp paper.

Likely I'll need to Email a source or two of those
VENTILATORS in order to know their source.
I'd like to see some larger sheet sizes
made available. Dan

jfish · Jan 14, 2009

Pakosol used to sell a chemical treatment, and while it would make it ore flat than not using it, having a dry mount press is the easiest.

I have a 16x20 that I am not using, should you want to discuss acquiring it.

George Collier · Jan 14, 2009

Dan and Reinhold - thanks for your most helpful responses. One more question: if you are using a good facing material (as you describe) do you have to worry about the acid content of the corrugated material?

jeroldharter · Jan 14, 2009

George Collier said:
To rwyoung - I do the back to back hanging thing for all my prints (no matter what size), with all four corners clothespin clipped, the top 2 on the line. They dry flat enough, less so in dryer times of the year. I wash them back to back (but in separate compartments) in a Gravity Works washer, then I pull them out just an inch or so, line up the top corners with the separator in between, then pull both out together and hang together.
I don't squeegee them (too much risk for me) and I suspect that the curling happens in the final stages of drying, so squeegeeing might help shorten the drying time, but I think relative humidity has more to do with the amount of curl, or "frilling" of the edges than anything.
I have tried all of the suggested methods, and for years, blotters, with the corragated separators, which produced the flattest prints, by far, but I got tired of worrying about lint and accumulated contamination, careful as I am.
Screens were ok, but often left a pattern, also need to be cleaned, and had curl.
The back to back hanging is the simplest and works best for me.
I just now did a search on Google for "photo blotters" and found this article - which aligns with most of my experiences - http://www.heylloyd.com/technicl/drying.htm.
In any case, my experience is that no matter how flat they are (even if I flatten with a dry mount press after drying), if I store them in archival boxes, or old paper packets, the relative humidity the day I take them out to mount them is what really matters. Prints that were once perfectly flat might not be the day I take them out to frame them, so - I just hang them as described, and deal with whatever they are on the day I frame them.

FWIW, I have had exactly the same experience and reached the same conclusions.

Reinhold · Jan 15, 2009

George,

I use paper blotters, and Dan uses a synthetic non-woven, but we both remove all standing water off of the print before putting them into the drier. I'll let Dan chime in, but I'm totally confident that acid bleed is not a problem if your prints are truly free of surface water. The interleaving should not feel wet. Remember, your prints are in the drier for only a few hours, at most.

My blotters are (I'm guesing) about 10 years old, and have dried (I'm guessing) about 300 prints. The blotters are still in good shape, no stains (except a few drops where I first discovered the necessity of removing all surface water). The corrugated looks about the same as when I started, no water marks, no puckering, just the typical "old corrugated carton" look. I know that some folks might be nervous about using such unrefined stuff, so I included a link to Conservation grade acid free board for their benefit.

Dan; your comments...?

Cheers

Reinhold

George Collier · Jan 15, 2009

Reinhold - thanks for your last post. My workflow when using either blotters or screens, many years ago, was to hang them back to back first, until they were nearing the point of beginning to dry (how do I describe that - still moist but not dripping), then put them into the screens or blotters. This is what I would do if going back to blotters. I'll have to think about this. Last night I found that I actually still have an unopened, virgin set of Kodak blotters big enough for 16x20 that I may use.

dancqu · Jan 16, 2009

George Collier said:
Dan and Reinhold - thanks for your most helpful responses.
One more question: if you are using a good facing material
(as you describe) do you have to worry about the acid
content of the corrugated material?

By "facing material" you mean the polyester separator
sheets? I can't see that an issue. Pre dried by sponge or
squeegee and placed upon those non-wetting separators
precludes contact with the corrugated board. No more
than water vapor transfers from the prints, through
the boards facing's, and out of the stack. A print
layer with top and bottom separators. Dan

dancqu · Jan 20, 2009

Reinhold said:
"I use paper blotters, and Dan uses a synthetic non-woven,
but we both remove all standing water off of the print before
putting them into the drier. I'll let Dan chime in, but I'm totally
confident that acid bleed is not a problem if your prints are truly
free of surface water. The interleaving should not feel wet.
Remember, your prints are in the drier for only a few
hours, at most.

A comment:

I can believe that there is some bleed from print to paper.
The stack is weighted on top and contact is intimate. Perhaps
that is as it should be. Paper separators as with many other
materials used in darkroom work date from ages ago. The
paper in direct contact and under pressure will absorb
moisture and direct it to the two face sheets of the
bottom and top corrugated boards.

I couldn't say how much of the very little chemistry
left in the paper is transferred. Cellulose is hydrophilic
so making it more believable that some transfer occurs.
So much for transfer from paper to separator. The print
is cleaner for the transfer and if there is no reversal of
transfer, as may be the case, then no problem.

There is another matter to be considered in the choice
of separator material and that is permeability. Will the
material allow for the free passage of water vapor? As
I see it the corrugated board's facing sheets present
the greatest barrier. All of the non-woven very
hydrophobic separator materials I've tested
are extremely permeable. Dan

chrisf · Feb 26, 2009

I tried the method of laying the print on a piece of glass and taping the edges down. I used two prints I didn't care for, taking them out of the water I didn't squeegee them but just taped them to the glass and let them dry 5 hours or so. They looked great, flat, just like they were dry mounted; that is until I cut them loose, I couldn't get them off the glass. Both prints were ruined. I'm trying one now that I squeegeed before taping to the glass.

If I can't get this method to work I think I'll adopt it when it comes time to mount the print but instead of tape I'll just use photo corners.

Getting Fiber Based Paper Flat

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